How to be effective with the AIM-54 PHOENIX in PVP

[IU.A.TI CAVE TROLL]

Guys I have a doubt, I just acquired the F-14 Tomcat and I noticed that the AIM-54 PHOENIX is slower compared to the AIM-120C (the fighter I usually flew which was the F-15), MY DOUBT DESPITE RELATIVELY, WHAT IS THE MOST EFFECTIVE DISTANCE USING THE AIM-54-PHOENIX? (The radar mode I use is TWS (Track While Scan) But whenever I launch the missile I see it lose power and the enemy manages to evade without further efforts.

1- What is the effective distance in miles for your shot?

2-Would you advise another missile? like the example of the AIM-7 Sparrow?

3-Which radar mode is advisable for short distance?

Please be patient as I am new to the F-14 TOMCAT, any suggestions are welcome.

[lucg]

Maybe, try a little internet research for the AIM-54 ... , you can learn a thing or two about it ... .

I think, it's the longest range AA missile available ... . Is it 100% reliable at long range, I really don't know ... !!! (don't have/own the F-14)

Try it, in the editor : put you in a plane against him, test the range and try to evade ... !!!

[MrMLGDoge]

I've had mixed results with the AIM 54. Sometime it's great, other times I'm just dumping weight and the missile trashes itself. With launching the Phoenix you want to be high and fast to get the best performance out of your missile.

[startrekmike]

Originally posted by IU.A.TI CAVE TROLL:

Guys I have a doubt, I just acquired the F-14 Tomcat and I noticed that the AIM-54 PHOENIX is slower compared to the AIM-120C (the fighter I usually flew which was the F-15), MY DOUBT DESPITE RELATIVELY, WHAT IS THE MOST EFFECTIVE DISTANCE USING THE AIM-54-PHOENIX? (The radar mode I use is TWS (Track While Scan) But whenever I launch the missile I see it lose power and the enemy manages to evade without further efforts.

1- What is the effective distance in miles for your shot?

2-Would you advise another missile? like the example of the AIM-7 Sparrow?

3-Which radar mode is advisable for short distance?

Please be patient as I am new to the F-14 TOMCAT, any suggestions are welcome.

1.) The effective distance is going to depend on a lot of different factors (size of target, how likely they are to maneuver, speed, altitude, etc). There is no one magical distance anyone is going to be able to give you.

2.) In PvP? That is a tough one. The AIM-54 can kill fighters but that is really going to depend on how aware they are and how well they maneuver and utilize their countermeasures. The Sparrow is going to have a tougher time since it doesn't have as much raw thrust going for it. The Phoenix is a solid missile that should work well at mid range shots.

3.) What do you mean by "short distance"? If you are talking about WVR (within visual range) distances?, you will want to be in PLM (pilot lock-on mode) since that is going to give you some flexibility. If you are in longer distance engagements, having Jester handle TWS or STT should work okay.

I think the big point I am trying to say is that a lot of these answers are honestly going to be "it depends" and finding the best way to handle various engagements usually comes down to reading about the various aircraft, weapons, and sensors involved. Take a look at books, pilot interviews, technical documents and all that. It isn't a quick answer and it isn't easy but it is going to give you all the underlying context you will need to really deal with these kinds of questions.

[Ricco]

can you shoot down an F-22???

[Ricco]

...also, regarding distances and such of missiles and which radar to use and all, isn't that covered in the training modules? I'm just hoping because I'm still learning to close canopies.

[BUders BoğaziçilidenÖzelDers]

It doesn't "depend" on anything. AIM-54 are simply trash for PvP right now for all altitude, speed and range parameters. If you get extremely lucky you may occasionally shoot down unsuspecting fighters at 60nm+ ranges, but to achieve that the bandit has to cruise high speed high altitude with NO maneuvers until very close to impact. Even with those ideal conditions, AWG-9 loses lock very often and wastes your launch most of the time.

Try flying F-16 and everything gets easier. I love flying F-14 but it doesn't really dominate the skies like it used to.

2) No

3) Use PAL, VSL LO and VSL HI, others are useless

[startrekmike]

Originally posted by GAVURSLAYER_1453:

It doesn't "depend" on anything. AIM-54 are simply trash for PvP right now for all altitude, speed and range parameters. If you get extremely lucky you may occasionally shoot down unsuspecting fighters at 60nm+ ranges, but to achieve that the bandit has to cruise high speed high altitude with NO maneuvers until very close to impact. Even with those ideal conditions, AWG-9 loses lock very often and wastes your launch most of the time.

Try flying F-16 and everything gets easier. I love flying F-14 but it doesn't really dominate the skies like it used to.

2) No

3) Use PAL, VSL LO and VSL HI, others are useless

You really shouldn't count on hitting a fighter sized, maneuvering target at 60nm+ with a AIM-54 anyway. You might get lucky if you find someone on a PvP server who got pushed into the public server scene before learning the basics (which is pretty common) but as a whole, BVR against a maneuvering fighter isn't going to happen at those kinds of ranges.

[Vanhala]

This isn't specifically easy subject to cover, but given several factors, I'd suggest the following (this is MASSIVELY simplified. Do NOT consider this as an in depth guide):

For this, I'll assume you fly alone. I also assume you use datalink to augment your situational awareness. I also assume you equip yourself with AIM-54C (I prefer no more than 2 in most cases) and use TWS mode.

Try to fly in friendly sector. Avoid getting too close to where stuff happens. You'll lose your advantage the moment you're in SPAMRAAM range. You will NOT match newer jets in ranges less than 20NM. So you'll need to fly high. Pick your target carefully. Don't commit on any target that is not alone as well. If you have friendly fighters nearby, you may consider attacking a pair of enemies.

After you've picked a target to commit to, accelerate to speed in excess of Mach 1. Monitor the target's surroundings and your own surroundings. if the situation gets unfavorable, bug out. If everything goes well, you'll hit 45NM of separation. Make the decision to go for a kill. Launch at approximately 37NM. Crank to the safer side, but do not hit the gimbal limit. The closer to the edge, the worse AWG-9 is keeping the lock. You might want to cut your AB at this point to save fuel, but keep your speed high. Monitor your surroundings and RWR.

When your target on TID starts blinking, your missile has gone pitbull. It's time to skate (turn away). This should happen the LATEST before 17NM, preferably before 20NM. Do NOT go closer than 15NM under ANY circumstances, unless you're willing to risk it. Now with AIM-54C, you don't necessarily have to wait for the blinking, it should go active by itself, but for best results you should be patient.

Anywho, skate the heck away. If you're fighting modern jets, you'll likely see active missile cue on your RWR around this time. No problem, if it is SPAMRAAM from your target, you should be fine as long as you keep the burners lit and evade slightly (consuming the missiles energy).

Now if in any point during the sequence you lost the track on your AWG-9, I'd highly consider bugging out immediately and trying to come back for another shot. Remember, distance is your friend. Take your time and be disciplined about it.

Practice is the best teacher. Make many runs and see what works and what doesn't. Just remember to be patient and strict about the way you do this. If you botch it, you can always go home and retry. If you botch it bad you can't, so avoid that.

[Onno]

Get a skilled human RIO?

[lucg]

Just the wiki page about the AIM-54() tells alot about this missile ... .

[startrekmike]

Originally posted by Onno:

Get a skilled human RIO?

On a public PvP server? Good luck with that.

[van Leeuwenhoek's mustache]

@U.A.TI CAVE TROLL

Unfortunately, the current tomcat is less capable than it was a couple of years ago, due to changes to phoenix acceleration and drag.

At best, you'll achieve 40-50% kill rate with phoenixes, but that's only if you launch them in ideal conditions (ie. high altitude launch while supersonic, ~40nmi, high flying bandit who doesn't react until pitbull).

Vanhala actually gave you pretty solid tips, I second his post.
Don't get within PAL range (15nmi) if you can avoid it, since anything equipped with amraams or SD-10s will have advantage then.

Your best bet now is to orbit behind your buddies, at high altitude (40+k feet), biding your time, waiting for distracted bandits flying high.
If you're lucky, they won't notice your nails nor anticipate your phoenix launch, so they'll only react when your phoenix goes pitbull.
This doesn't mean you'll get a hit, it just means that you'll have a chance of hitting.

If the bandit is flying at medium or low altitude, don't bother firing, since your phoenix will probably run out of steam before reaching the target... it's better to turn around and reset.
But if the situation forces you to engage regardless, then it's better to use the C mk47, since it has longer burn time than the mk60 now.
It should keep up with amraams a bit better at medium and low altitude.

As for the "optimal distance" it depends on speed, altitude and aspect (both yours and the bandit's).
The lower the altitude, the closer you need to be for phoenixes to reach the bandit... but keep in mind that any bandit equipped with amraams or SD-10s will have advantage at medium/low altitude, so better stay high and only engage bandits who also fly high (also, fire before the bandit gets within amraam/SD-10 range).

40nmi shots should be ok, but again, you only have a chance of hitting if the bandit is distracted and doesn't react until pitbull, otherwise don't bother shooting.
If you get lucky, you might even get kills at 60+nmi, but the bandit needs to be flying high and straight towards you.

As for phoenix type, better use the C, either mk47 or mk60 motor versions, up to you.
Mk47 motor used to be the weakest one, it's still a tad weaker, but now it has longer burn time than the mk60, so it might be a better choice for low / medium altitude engagements.
Also keep in mind that the mk47 motor produces less smoke than the mk60, so it's tactically better.

As for sparrows, I don't bother equipping them (unless the mission/server forces me to).
They're among the worst semi-active missiles in the game, very limited range and speed... I'd rather take 2 extra sidewinders.

However, sparrows do have interesting tactical utility, for instance, they can be fired at phoenix range in order to fool the enemy, making them think you're firing phoenixes.
Up to you.

As for radar modes, I always start sweeping in RWS, since it picks up contacts fast and works well at long range (as long as you tell Jester to set the correct radar elevation, based on altitude and range, which you can get from AWACS / EWR).

Then I switch to TWS auto, which picks up the contacts detected in RWS with ease.
This is the mode you want to use for tactical phoenix launch (ie. launch without warning)
However, keep in mind that TWS has its limitations, it's slower than RWS and will struggle to pick up jamming bandits.

Finally, if you get within 15nmi, you must switch to PAL, don't rely on Jester to find anything at such ranges, he'll get you killed.
PAL will perform an 8 bar 20º sweep and STT lock the first target it finds (max range is 15nmi, it has no IFF, so be careful).

Last but not least, if you're planning on flying with Jester, I recommend using macros, to handle the wheel menu.