How true to reality is DCS' Aim-120c?

[XIII]

So for the start, I get little knowledge about modern A2A combat. Im aware I might be all wrong, buts that what Im asking^^


I was knew that launch altitude, angle and target attitude was a big deal for "true" missile range, rather than the seemingly random 100-300 km range numbers. Thats after all why air superiority planes are still a thing.
But playing DCS, it feels like an Aim-120 cant do almost nothing on its own, as long as its not in a near perfect scenario.

Cant say exact numbers, but IIRC ive had Mig-29s fly away from me at mach 0.9. and a realiable hit-range was like 9 miles. Even in frontal engagement I often dont get a good indicator beyond 20 miles. That hardly even feels like BVR, and is probably far into the range of modern IRST sensors (imagine using your own radar in 2022).
Ive tried shots at ranges to test the accuracy of the indicator, but those Aim-120s indeed often got dodged.

At least thats my general experience anjd impression. Aim-120s, apparently the best BVR missiles in the game, seem to have surprisingly little effective range. Like maybe 2-3 times as much as a Sidewinder-X?
Is this realistic, DCS being bonkers or am I doing something wrong?

[Borat Sagdiyev]

Think about this, Top gun still exists in real life for this very reason, Its also why they are called missiles, Well they miss, At the end of the day DCS is a game and a game only treat it like one, DCS will never have true real world data (Legal reasons) FBI would be knocking on EDs office door. And poor WAGS and the team would be in alot of hot water. Everything depends on what you and your bandit are doing at the time, Example if your bandit is flying away from you its no threat so why fire and waste missiles? There are also many ways to defeat actives in DCS or types of counter measures.

[james7347]

There is no way any smart weapon can be fully reproduced in any game and it is a game.

[Troll Norris]

AIM-120 model is one of the most tuned in DCS as far as I know. The missile model went through many CFD simulations, the stabilisators were many times tuned, e.t.c..

https://forum.dcs.world/topic/236819-aim-120-development/

[james7347]

Origineel geplaatst door Troll Norris:

AIM-120 model is one of the most tuned in DCS as far as I know. The missile model went through many CFD simulations, the stabilisators were many times tuned, e.t.c..

https://forum.dcs.world/topic/236819-aim-120-development/

Tuned in cobblers. Its a digital model of a real world object nothing more. DCS is a game. Military simulations teach nothing mire than drills, SOPS ect. None of them can reproduce a real battlefield.

[Borat Sagdiyev]

Origineel geplaatst door james7347:

Origineel geplaatst door Troll Norris:

AIM-120 model is one of the most tuned in DCS as far as I know. The missile model went through many CFD simulations, the stabilisators were many times tuned, e.t.c..

https://forum.dcs.world/topic/236819-aim-120-development/

Tuned in cobblers. Its a digital model of a real world object nothing more. DCS is a game. Military simulations teach nothing mire than drills, SOPS ect. None of them can reproduce a real battlefield.

Exactly but the community do not see it this way.

[Troll Norris]

One more, bit older video of the missile's autopilot system:
https://youtu.be/1NeZK3O-9Nk

Source:
https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/news/2018-11-02_DCSUpdate/

[james7347]

Origineel geplaatst door Borat Sagdiyev:

Origineel geplaatst door james7347:

Tuned in cobblers. Its a digital model of a real world object nothing more. DCS is a game. Military simulations teach nothing mire than drills, SOPS ect. None of them can reproduce a real battlefield.

Exactly but the community do not see it this way.

I get that. But it is what it is. Its a great game. i have spent over a 1000 hours playing it and bought almost all the modules. I think is one of the best games out there.

However I am a retired cold war solder. I have used early tank simulators ( converted gazel sim to tank driving) I have used the simulators in Grafenvier ( cant spell that sorry) made by Lockheed Martian. I have used Challenger 2 gunnery sims. Bun NONE can fully reproduce real life.

[james7347]

Origineel geplaatst door Troll Norris:

One more, bit older video of the missile's autopilot system:
https://youtu.be/1NeZK3O-9Nk

Source:
https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/news/2018-11-02_DCSUpdate/

Does the simulation take into account the temperature of the missile fuel?

[XIII]

Origineel geplaatst door Borat Sagdiyev:

Think about this, Top gun still exists in real life for this very reason, Its also why they are called missiles, Well they miss, At the end of the day DCS is a game and a game only treat it like one

Origineel geplaatst door james7347:

There is no way any smart weapon can be fully reproduced in any game and it is a game.

Oh, dont get me wrong, Im neither making demands to DCS, nor do I expect ultimate realism. Im aware almost any actual capability, especially those with numbers, are highly classified. Heck, the "official" abilities/numbers might be misdirection.

I just wonder about the concept of A2A fighting, because I would expect DCS at least to catch the "spirit" of the weapon systems.
Because it seems to indicate tha classic "A2A BVR is everything" narratives are nonsense. And while I understand an F35 cant replace an F22, or even F15, it would imply the latter has a sheer meteoric advantage using missiles.

Like its not telling the return of dogfighting, but it certainly implies close range knife-fights could be expected to be the norm in air-conflicts. Even if theyre fought with stuff like Sidewinder-X' (which are terrifyingly effective in DCS).


Basically I just wonder if thats a more realistic impression of air combat, or if this is just gamey stuff, or nobody knows^^

[Troll Norris]

Origineel geplaatst door james7347:

Does the simulation take into account the temperature of the missile fuel?

Ask developers. What I know is the missile uses solid fuel rocket motor.

[XIII]

Origineel geplaatst door james7347:

Tuned in cobblers. Its a digital model of a real world object nothing more. DCS is a game. Military simulations teach nothing mire than drills, SOPS ect. None of them can reproduce a real battlefield.

But there is a difference between "vaguely how you can expect the real missile to behave" and "ace combat missile goes brrrrrrr".

You can have a tank sim, and getting penetration and armor values wrong doesnt change how tanks fundamentally work. Youre just getting the specific place of this one tank and ammo wrong.

[james7347]

Its a game. A brilliant GAME but not a an exact copy of real physical things. Might be very close in some cases but miles out in others. By the way solid fuel burns at different speeds at different temps.

Its a game

[james7347]

Origineel geplaatst door XIII:

Origineel geplaatst door james7347:

Tuned in cobblers. Its a digital model of a real world object nothing more. DCS is a game. Military simulations teach nothing mire than drills, SOPS ect. None of them can reproduce a real battlefield.

But there is a difference between "vaguely how you can expect the real missile to behave" and "ace combat missile goes brrrrrrr".

You can have a tank sim, and getting penetration and armor values wrong doesnt change how tanks fundamentally work. Youre just getting the specific place of this one tank and ammo wrong.

Sorry I dont understand the point you are making ( Not trolling)

[Troll Norris]

The thing is, It will never be 1:1. It is impossible. But it is as close to realism as possible.

[XIII]

Origineel geplaatst door james7347:

Origineel geplaatst door XIII:

But there is a difference between "vaguely how you can expect the real missile to behave" and "ace combat missile goes brrrrrrr".

You can have a tank sim, and getting penetration and armor values wrong doesnt change how tanks fundamentally work. Youre just getting the specific place of this one tank and ammo wrong.

Sorry I dont understand the point you are making ( Not trolling)

Oh no worries, better to ask twice if I was unclear^^

I maybe went a bit far talking about "real air war", but I was more talking about one specific but fundamental aspect, the vague effective range of BVR radar guided missiles.

And if its likely that DCS is somewhat close to how those kind of missiles could be expected to behave in reality. Not even in "intelligence/networking", but it ballistic performance, the rang and ability to catch aircraft.

Because I feel it would destroy a lot of common narratives about the power of BVR-combat if missiles are as limited in effective range as DCS implies.

I mean we know the vague weight of an Aim-120, dimensions and shape, maybe burn-rate of certain variants, as well as the common efficiency of solid rocket motors. So that might be enough for a guess.
But it might well be that we know so little about these missiles that its impossible to make a guess. I dont know^^