Help with BVR engagements

[UKoctane]

I hopped into my first multiplayer server today to see if it was just the AI which were ridiculously good at BVR engaging, but it seems not. Whenever I take out my F15C into a BVR engagement i will usually be on the same altitude or above the target at a decent speed. However today i encountered a pair of Mig 29s on my scope. I locked them up using TWS mode and when i got into range i fired 2 Aim 120Cs at each of them for good measure (i could actually see them by this point, so much for the AIM 120 having a BVR capabilty :P). I waited for the the second missile to go pitbull and then turned defensive. It seems that all the missiles completely and utterly missed, however the Mig's missiles chased me for a good 2 or so minutes and eventually one of them hit. Apart from my atrocious BVR defensive flying is there something I'm soing wrong on the shooty side of things. It seems almost every BVR missile i ever fire just glides on past the targets and then they land their shots on me.

Yes I am a total noob so help would be much appreciated.

[BodyOrgan]

This is such a large topic, so I suggest doing a search on the ED forums for additional information.

The missiles in DCS fly using lead pursuit (I'm not a missile expert, but I doubt real missiles operate this way) meaning you can artificially bleed their energy by jinking (randomly changing your aspect) as they fly toward you. The missile will adjust to your new aspect all the while losing energy. This would allow you to perform a breaking turn to ultimately defeat it in the end.

Another great tactic is to dive into the dirt (probably best currently). If you're close enough to the missile, have enough speed, and enough altitude the missile will fly into the ground because it is flying lead pursuit. Ever wonder why people always dive when fired upon? There is also the added benefit of the atmosphere being thicker the lower you are, so it creates more drag (less energy) for the missile in the event it doesn't hit the ground.

You need to factor these tactics into your shots. Firing two off only to have your target dive is just going to cause the loss of two missiles. Stagger the shots. First shot to force the dive, and another shot once the target is low, so they can't force the 2nd missile to eat the dirt.

[UKoctane]

Thanks for the info. Any clue when the 120's range is going to be fixed too? I thought it could reach further than the R77 IRL.
So when I'm engaging 2 bandits i should fire 2 missiles, dive if they got some off and then when i have defeated their missiles just pull back up and launch again?

[=AiR FORCE=]

BVR is not straight forward, it's a complex energy management, and in order to succeed, one has to develop a very good sense of situational awareness, plotting the missiles and aircraft in 3D space, inside your head, so to say. And the understanding of the physics of the simulation comes over time, a long time. A great way to learn is to use TacView, replaying and reviewing your engagements, whether failed or successful. One good tip is to launch when supersonic, so the missile's initial V is as high as it can be, thus increasing its range. And never launch at max range, that's only for non-maneuvering/drone targets.

Even with a lot of improvements over the years (over two decades since Flanker), the AI are terrible at BVR compared to any decent human opponent. And the AIM-120C is superior to the R-77 in DCS as it is, both in range (maintaining energy) and guidance. Also, the Su-27/33 also show up as 29 on the RWR, so do not assume it's a MiG-29, the radar lock will ID the target as you get closer.

[UKoctane]

OK. I also heard somewhere that the Aim 120C is glitched out in that if you break radar contact once it goes pitbull it will stop tracking as if it is a sparrow. Is this true or has it been patched/was it a myth?

[=AiR FORCE=]

Origineel geplaatst door UKoctane:

OK. I also heard somewhere that the Aim 120C is glitched out in that if you break radar contact once it goes pitbull it will stop tracking as if it is a sparrow. Is this true or has it been patched/was it a myth?

I do not recall that ever being the case, as in ever since Lock On back in 2003 when the F-15C came out. The fact is that most, if not the great majority of new comers to DCS may find it extremely difficult, or almost impossible (and quite frustrating) when they do not succeed in achieving a positive result - a kill, begin looking for something that's wrong or buggy with the simulator.

However, I can assure you, and so do posts on the developer's forum, that it is not the case and that it can take years, yes, years of experience to get decent (not great, not very good) at it, especially in multiplayer.

One may even question the realism of the missiles, stating data, like range, from Wikipedia, which is absolutely the most terrible source for this kind of stuff. A medium range air-to-air missile's range can range very widely, depending on several factors. The Wiki (or other online sources) stated ranges are for ideal conditions, as in at high altitude, both, the launch platform and the target being supersonic and non-maneuvering. This would never happen in real life, or in DCS, which is a simulation of real. The range information on these missiles located online is highly exaggerated, or blatantly put - false.

Also, keep in mind, that quite a few of your online opponents have been flying the Eagle Dynamics Simulator for several years, some over a decade, and some from the very beginning (20 years in my case, since Flanker back in 1995). And in the course of its development, it has become less and less of a game and more and more of a very realistic simulation. One should adjust their expectations accordingly, there's just no way around the experience and the time spent flying DCS. It used to be easier to score kills, but as the missiles' physics/dynamics/guidance has evolved towards realism and the people's (and AI's) skills improved, now it's a lot more difficult to score a kill.

And again, I cannot stress this enough, DCS should not be perceived as a game to have fun with, but taken very seriously, with patience, as it's a lot of work, a lot of failures, a lot of learning, requiring a very long time in order to be able to consistently succeed.

[UKoctane]

Thank you for the help. It's much appreciated. Looks like its back to the AI for now.

[Altairv]

Many factors can effect the outcome of your BVR , first of all distance from target and altitude, the higher you are, the higher max range will be, also if target has mountains right below it will dive as soon as you shoot your missile making it difficult for it to keep track of target, missile might lose target or it might hit the ground trying to reach target at very low altitude.

As for avoiding missiles, keep what I stated in mind, also if you are far away from missile try to have it at 3 or 9 oclock and try acquire as much speed as possible and lower your altitude to increase chances the missile will hit the ground, mountains can help you , you will force the missile to keep steering to intercept you while it tries to reach your altitude, it will lose energy quick especially if they are out of fuel. Also don't forget to use countermeasures, missile will get confused and probably stop steering toward you and finally lose track and go ballistic

[=AiR FORCE=]

Also, forget about "dodging" missiles.
You want to defeat the missile before it ever arrives near you.
Use the 3-9 line or what's called "notching", with high speed and preferably also change altitude by rolling and descending/ascending, smoothly, as not to lose your energy.
Speed is life. Launch supersonic, so the missile will reach its maximum V sooner, thus having a longer range.

A missile's range varies greatly depending on several factors.
A missile's range is not how much distance it will travel, but rather the distance between the launch platform and the target at the time of the launch. There's a huge difference between a head-on scenario and a chase one, and everything in between.

Also, high altitude may not be your friend, as you maybe contrailing and are clearly visible.
Another reason is if you're much higher than the opponent, your missile has to dive (in addition to having to travel farther, think of a triangle), and the force of gravity is actually overpowered by the force of air friction, and so a missile launched from high downwards will actually reach its max V and then begin to slow down as it's entering thicker air, even with the motor still producing thrust, one may notice that it's decelerating.

BVR is an art, not so much a mechanical robot-like "if he does that, I do that".
It can take years to learn the flow of and get the "feel" for it.

One will find it much easier to score a hit in Lock On and Flaming Cliffs 1.12b (the last version of that engine) than in DCS and since the missiles received the realistic physics upgrade. Try it, maybe get a hold of an older version of the simulator, the difference in BVR is astronomical.

[=AiR FORCE=]

Here's a bit of a secret when it comes to the use of ECM.
I was thinking whether I should even give it up and have decided that I might as well.

In DCS, all air-to-air radar missiles use Lead Pursuit.
However, they fall into Pure Pursuit if the target is "jamming".

This change makes the missile travel a longer distance to reach the target, but at the same time, it would pull less Gs as the target maneuvers, as it's not trying for "where the target will be" but pointing straight at the target.

Back in the day, it was easier to take advantage of that, because the ECM did not have a delay when engaged. And so one could fiddle with ECM on and off, making the missile switch back and forth in its targeting theme. Once the delay was introduced, it became more of a timing skill.

Knowing this and properly taking advantage of it (as well as using CM like chaff) will greatly improve one's chances of evading a missile. One example would be to smoothly go into a notch and then disengaging the ECM may actually even break the supporting radar's lock or even an active missile's lock if timed with the use of chaff. For this to work well, your notch has to be a perfect one, exactly 3 or 9 o'clock of the radar beam (this is actually called beaming, a notch involves the minimal difference in relative speeds, in fact, when you chase a target with the same speed as you, he's in a notch, it's the speed difference that matters for the Doppler radar to fail the tracking, and also the notching target's altitude must be lower than the attacker's, to take advantage of terrain masking). All of this is quite difficult to achieve (and maintain, as the geometry is dynamic) and comes with experience.

[=AiR FORCE=]

Here's a good old website that Ironhand set up back in Lock On FC times:
http://flankertraining.com/ironhand/a2a.htm

It has videos covering the basics, that still apply in DCS.

[=AiR FORCE=]

If you watch some of my videos, employing the R-27ER, you'd notice that I put the radar in Medium PRF (Pulse Repetition Frequency) even on the head on target (although my HUD is in genuine Russian). Med PRF is better than Interleaving or Hi against maneuvering targets (at least in DCS it is). I almost never launch in Auto or Interleaving or Hi PRF, and if I do, I switch to Medium as soon as the missile comes off the rail. Even with the PRF indication disappearing on the HUD, it's still functional and can (and should) be changed. The target is pretty much always certainly going to attempt an evade of your missile, so using Medium from the start is best, ER is tracking solid then. I believe the same applies to the AIM-7M and even with the AMRAAM, the lock needs to be maintained until 'pitbull' and PRF setting still matters.

[=AiR FORCE=]

Origineel geplaatst door coxy:

link to the 27-ER shots please? be nice to have a look at that.

Here's one of my videos, where I get 9 kills in 2 sorties, it is pretty long, about an hour.
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=663153215

You can find more of my videos under my profile or the videos section and also on my channel:
https://www.youtube.com/user/DCSMPVideos/videos

Below is a lot to read, but is very useful, rare (if exists at all, as I never posted this on Eagle forums, neither have I seen anyone else do it) and practical info:

I also employ a nice trick, whenever possible, where I'd use EOS/IRST and then launch the R-27ER from that mode. :)

Notice that the radar turns on automatically on launch of a radar missile from EOS/IRST, just like the laser on Su-25T turns on automatically on launch of a laser guided missile. Then I turn off the EOS/IRST, as if I did not, it could resort to heat tracking even with the radar still on, but by doing so, I'm insuring that it's a radar lock only, so I don't have to guess if I lost the radar lock.

In addition, as I talked about above, as I launch, I immediately switch to Medium PRF, and even though the HUD indication is not there after the STT lock, the change in PRF still functions. One can see that after a hit (or loss of a lock), the radar displays Medium PRF. Same goes for the F-15C radar, actually. I like to use TWS in Medium PRF instead of High, where it goes into by default, so I switch to Medium then turn on TWS. Tricky and very useful stuff, take notes :)

The RWR has a delay so when I launch the ER from EOS/IRST, the enemy's RWR goes from silent to a sudden launch warning, with a delay. This gives me an advantage as part of the element of surprise.

I use other tricks, like in the Su-25T (which I fly since day one of FC back in 2005, so over 10 years) I can have two Vikhr-M or other laser missiles flying, and once the first one hits, I switch the target to the next one. You can see in my videos that I do this quite frequently. I also use the Launch Permission Override, so I'm able to begin engaging with Vikhr-M from 10km exactly (used to be able to do it from 15km, and with the Kh-29L from 20km now still). And so I'm able to hit as many as 6 targets in a single pass. This requires turning the laser off and back on right after the first launch, wait, launch next one, turn off and on, and so forth.
At some point, the laser will be in cooling mode (blinking), and so I have to use the Laser On Override by pressing it a few times quickly.

With the R-27ER, I can even get nastier, by pre-launching one, so to say, with override, straight at the target, waiting a decent amount of time, and only engaging the radar towards the end. :)

Also, notice that I always, for every target I lock in EOS/IRST, check IFF from by turning the radar on for a split of a sec, verifying with the HUD indication. And when I begin with a radar lock, I turn the EOS/IRST on and turn off the radar, in attempt to fall back into a thermal lock only. This way I do not give away the fact that I'm locking him. It's possible to tell if it's even worth doing so, by judging the target's speed and aspect. Basically, I try to use the radar only when I absolutely have to. :)

This is a lot of info, I do not think people do this, I pretty much invented this stuff, I fly this simulator for a very long time, since Flanker back in 1995 and have thoroughly seen its evolution. I spent 8 years flying offline, until Lock On 1.00 - 1.02 in 2003 and in 2005 when Flaming Cliffs and the Su-25T came out, I won Lock On Tournament and FREE copy of FC upgrade officially from lockon.ru :) http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=75144

There used to be the R-27EA missile back in LockOn 1.00 but they swiftly removed it in 1.02
Although one could still enable it in LUA, until FC1 came out. The R-27EA was an active version of the R-27ER, and it was one hell of a missile! The logic behind removing it was that although it exist(s)(ed), it was not fielded and apparently the Flanker radar could not support it without a modification.

The R-27R/ER can HOJ without the supporting radar, although inaccurately, and will not hit a fast moving or maneuvering target. However, it lets you reengage the lock if one is lost for a few secs and the missile will return to tracking. Even if the bandit is not jamming, it's possible to reengage. The HUD tracking may begin blinking, but the missile will continue on its path, which gives one a chance to reestablish the lock, whether by fiddling with RPF or other means. It can occur when the target is beaming or is in a notch, which has to be pretty perfect, so if one is in one, usually it wont last than a few secs, just enough to reestablish the lock.

It's also possible to support the R-27ER of your buddy.
In a pair, one, for example, can be ahead like 10km and inline with the buddy behind and the bandit, launch and break away, while the buddy supports the missile! It's like extending its range by 10km :)

Another amazing thing I was able to achieve, back in like version 1.2.8, is a double kill, where I launched 2 ERs on a pair of F-15s, from the rear, locked first, launched, unlocked, locked second, launched, and each hit its target! I have actually saved a multiplayer track of that. Btw, each MP session is automatically recorded as a track. I can provide the track, but one would have to roll back the version (which isnt that difficult with the DCS_updater.exe on standalone DCS) in order to watch it play out normally.

More: The MiG-29S is able to lock, track and launch upon 2 targets simultaneously in TWS2 mode with the R-77s. I don't think anyone does that and the majority doesn't know it's even possible.. In fact, that reminds me, I'm going to make a video of that and post it. The instant action will suffice for the demonstration. Here it is:

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=665602261

Well, that was a lot of (secret or not common) info, and there's more, but I feel like I'm writing War and Peace here, so it's good for now :)