TM HOTAS Warthog. Use Flaps in other planes than the A10C?

[Derelict Mala'kak Engineer]

So I googled that there is a mod to enable the behaviour as in the A10C with the flaps button.
Now that that fact is out of the way lets ask a question :)

So. The Flaps switch on the throttle has three positions.
UP/MVR/DN. These positions are represented by buttons 23 and 24 (don't quote me on this. But lets say that I remembered correctly here).

So UP = 23 and DOWN = 24. Wait. Did I not just say it is three positions ?! Yes I did.
And I can't bind the middle position in DCS because it is not a button.

I believe in DCS A10C they have solved it by setting a default position as middle and both up and down positions override that position. Hence three positions.

Now the questions is. Since I have found a mod that seems to fix this I am no longer asking about how to solve it. I am asking if this will ever be solved in the unmodded version. Apparently the A10C can handle it so we all know it can be done (without mods). Will ED provide a way to bind these positions for other planes ? Version 2 ? Version 2.5 ?

I am genereally not too keen on modding but unless I see a light at the end of this tunnel I will mod away without hesitation. I am hoping that someone who reads this knows more than what I have been able to google.

[Derelict Mala'kak Engineer]

Escrito originalmente por 1./ZG1_El Hadji:

Stupid question perhaps, but why don't you use T.A.R.G.E.T. if having a GUI is important for this?

I was asking myself the same question at first.
It indeed sounds like the ultimate solution.
Create one profile that send an event for every position of every button.
Then I found a forum thread describing the problem of when you hit buttons at the same time.
TARGET recodes the joystick buttons as keyboard presses.

So to keep workload down I would code for example set one position of the flaps button to use Shift+F so it can be used right out of the box without adjusting controls for every module.

Now. I have not verified if this is the case myself but I read that since that is 2 key presses sent for 1 press of a button. What can happen if you are in a stressed situation and hit many buttons at the same time is that the sequence of keyboard buttons become interleaved and messes up the controls. For example if for some reason you were firing at the same time as deploying flaps (an example) you could end up sending Shift + Spacebar + F.

So basically while the TARGET is still a viable option that I keep in mind I would like to confirm if this is a real problem before rebinding every aircraft I have.
I am still looking for other solutions though so I have not gotten around to the TARGET testing yet.

[Derelict Mala'kak Engineer]

Escrito originalmente por kazereal:

Escrito originalmente por shakamaca:

The only reason for this to NOT be an easy fix is if the coder has been a total noob and hardcoded everything everywhere.

As I've tried to explain, "easy" and "work intensive" are not mutually exclusive.

Yes, it would not be difficult, but it would need plenty of manual work and taking care that every single thing works correctly. Amount of WORK is the problem, not difficulty: it would be very time consuming, repetitive and error-prone but not difficult.

The problem is that configuration for keybinding in DCS (Lua-scripts), needs to match code in the cockpit code (DLL), flight model code (DLL) AND the arguments in the 3D models so correct animations are used, correct switch/knob states and so on.

It is not difficult but requires a lot of work and there is no simple way to make it all "just happen" - 3D model is made in 3ds Max and exported to EDM format, no idea if that plugin could support reading some table of configuration data but that would not solve the problem.

Let me ask you.

Can you bind F to whatever action you want ?
Then.
Can you bind Shift + A to whatever action you want ?
Can you bind X + Y to whatever action you want ?
You can, can't you ?
Without the module developer having to be supporting it for that specific action.

I do not see what the DLL files have to do with binding a key to an action.

If it helps to describe my point. We can say that if you press F then
DCS would automatically send a Shift+F whenever you release the F button.
Both can be bound by the GUI interface to an action.

If i want to bind F I would double click an action and press F.
If I want to bind Shift+F I would in this case press and hold F and then double click the action I want to bind before releasing F and a Shift+F would appear in the column.

Now transfer this same idea onto our joystick buttons.
It is only a question of encoding (perhaps setting the signed bit) and there would be a bindable action for every button being released. Neither DCS nor the module need to care what this new button is. All they need to know is that this new button can be bound to an action.

Now, I am inclined to agree that this is perhaps not EDs problem.
Since I realized that if DCS solves this, the problem would still remain in Elite Dangerous and any other game that use the Warthog.
I believe it is up to TM to come up with a better solution than TARGET.

They could easily release a new firmware that actually send a button event when those switches are OFF instead of forcing us to solve it through TARGET or LUA modding.

[Chameleon_Silk]

well what your asking shakamaca is for ED to begin making a T.A.R.G.E.T like program or saitek programming software.

you could just use the programming software that comes with the hardware to solve the issue. by default my POV hat on stick looks around, instead I have it press the arrow keys and act as a 4 way hat and adjusted my arrow keys in the keyboard section of DCS to control what I wanted the hat to do, saved my profiles.

if your expensive warthog doesn't have software to enable the proper use of that button then blame the warthog and not DCS, I certainly have access to every button on my much cheaper HOTAS.

[ButterCookie]

Escrito originalmente por shakamaca:

I was asking myself the same question at first.
It indeed sounds like the ultimate solution.
Create one profile that send an event for every position of every button.
Then I found a forum thread describing the problem of when you hit buttons at the same time.
TARGET recodes the joystick buttons as keyboard presses.

So to keep workload down I would code for example set one position of the flaps button to use Shift+F so it can be used right out of the box without adjusting controls for every module.

Now. I have not verified if this is the case myself but I read that since that is 2 key presses sent for 1 press of a button. What can happen if you are in a stressed situation and hit many buttons at the same time is that the sequence of keyboard buttons become interleaved and messes up the controls. For example if for some reason you were firing at the same time as deploying flaps (an example) you could end up sending Shift + Spacebar + F.

So basically while the TARGET is still a viable option that I keep in mind I would like to confirm if this is a real problem before rebinding every aircraft I have.
I am still looking for other solutions though so I have not gotten around to the TARGET testing yet.

I'm using the Target software since I got my TM Warthog about 2 years ago and made a profile for every module I own.
So far I have encountered the problem you describe only in one special case.

That case involved opening a safety cover, then flipping a switch, which I used a 3-way switch on the Warthog for (The Flaps-Swicht to be precise).
The problem was solved by reducing the time a key is pressed in TARGET - which is only a few miliseconds by default.

After that everything worked fine.

[Derelict Mala'kak Engineer]

@ButterCookie: Great news. Thanks.

Did that problem happen every time when you flipped the switch until you reduced the time the key was pressed ? When it happened to you, was it obvious what the problem was ?

When using TARGET. Can you actually Alt+TAB out to TARGET and switch profile without restarting DCS or do you need to shut it down ?
I'm thinking of long loading times for multiplayer whenever I want to switch between roles.

Did you decide to set the keys as they are bound in DCS by default, i.e map FLAPS button to F, Shift+F etc or did you choose another approach ?

Have you noticed if there is a limit of 32 buttons on the virtual device ?
It was mentioned in a forum post and it sounds a bit on the lower end for a device that groups two huge devices together. So it can't be so.. I hope :)

[ButterCookie]

Escrito originalmente por shakamaca:

@ButterCookie: Great news. Thanks.

Did that problem happen every time when you flipped the switch until you reduced the time the key was pressed ? When it happened to you, was it obvious what the problem was ?

Happened only when i pulled the switch too fast, wich means pulling from the "normal" up position right down to the down position.
If I remember correctly all the keys were recognised, but mixed up. As I said fiddling with the delay between key presses solved that.

Escrito originalmente por shakamaca:

When using TARGET. Can you actually Alt+TAB out to TARGET and switch profile without restarting DCS or do you need to shut it down ?
I'm thinking of long loading times for multiplayer whenever I want to switch between roles

You need to restart DCS as switching the profile is similar to switching the flight stick. That is one downsid to this solution.

Escrito originalmente por shakamaca:

Did you decide to set the keys as they are bound in DCS by default, i.e map FLAPS button to F, Shift+F etc or did you choose another approach ?

I use the default keys in DCS and assign new keypresses in DCS for actions, that aren't mapped, then configure everything in TARGET. It's a bit of work, but you only need to do it once :)

Escrito originalmente por shakamaca:

Have you noticed if there is a limit of 32 buttons on the virtual device ?
It was mentioned in a forum post and it sounds a bit on the lower end for a device that groups two huge devices together. So it can't be so.. I hope :)

There is no 32 button limit with the TARGET's virtual stick, as it directly emulates keypresses on the keyboard. You can use all button positions and axes.

[Derelict Mala'kak Engineer]

Thanks! I think I will test a TARGET setup for Elite Dangerous at first so it is only one game I need to mess around with at first. I have actually been interested in using the layers in TARGET to have different functionality depending on which mode I am in.

And since almost everything on the throttle is a switch it would really help bindings a LOT :D

At least I should create some profiles and hammer away at buttons to see how badly I can mess it up, if at all.


You never considered to make a profile that is just A-Z 0-9 a-z ? ... one letter/number for every button. Maybe could solve messing up sequences where Shift+Key is involved. But sounds like a lot more work tho :(