Recommendation for a helicopter module to complement the Hind

[Althar]

Hello all,

I've been a fixed wing pilot so far & have been wanting to branch out into helicopters lately. I have already pre-ordered the Hind which has been on my "wishlist" for a while so looking forward to sinking my teeth into that one.

Given the Steam sale, I thought I could probably afford to pick another helicopter to get accustomed to flying whirlybirds.

Which module would you recommend that would complement the Hind in terms of role/capabilities? I have my eyes on the KA-50 which just seems like an all round good module with its quirks. The Mi-8 does look nice but I feel like I'll be getting more or less the same thing with the Mi-24.

The Gazelle does seems quite fun, nimble & twitchy & a bit of an anomaly compared to the other helicopters but from what I read the flight model is completely off from how a helicopter should control.

Thanks in advance,

[Zero]

KA-50s a good bet.

[Randy Lahey]

Don't forget the Huey. They're all stellar, I have them all. The Mi8 is one of my favourites actually. It will be very different from the Hind.

[dan]

You can never go wrong with a huey. A great excuse to play fortunate son for hours.

Also yeah you should totally listen to all those Gazelle experts whove totally flown it in real life. Gazelle has a different control system to other helis so of course it feels different compared to other helis. It pitches and rolls like an airplane would i.e centering the stick won't level Gazelle it will only stop further pitch/roll

[Althar]

Originally posted by dan:

You can never go wrong with a huey. A great excuse to play fortunate son for hours.

Also yeah you should totally listen to all those Gazelle experts whove totally flown it in real life. Gazelle has a different control system to other helis so of course it feels different compared to other helis. It pitches and rolls like an airplane would i.e centering the stick won't level Gazelle it will only stop further pitch/roll

That's what I understood but it wasn't clear if this is how the actual helicopter operates of if this is an incorrect implementation of the FM.

[Sizigmund]

I fly both Ka-50 and Mi-8MTV2. If you just starting with helicopters then the Ka-50 is what you need. It have a very good autopilot that helps a lot flying it. But don't think that autopilot is something bad. In helicopters it is more like a fly by wire system than autopilot and real pilots using it almost all the time during the flight. Now the Ka-50 autopilot can do much more than to be a fly by wire system only. It can fly helicopter on route by itself. The reason for this is that the Ka-50 is a ground strike helicopter that have a single person to control both the helicopter and the weaponary systems.
Bottom line, Ka-50 is a very good ground strike helicopter. It have very good laser guided air to ground missiles that can also be used in air to air mode, so you can fire them at enemy helicopters as well.

Mi-8MTV2 is a very tricky to fly helicopter. It is much harder to fly than Ka-50. It is not a ground strike helicopter but more a transport helicopter. It doesn't have any guided missiles, so you can use it mostly to clear the landing zone out of enemy infantry and / or light armored and unarmored units. I was able to even destroy a ZU-23 and AAA Vulcan. But it is a very hard task for this helicopter, especially the Vulkan AAA. The unguided missiles aren't do much damage if you didn't made a direct hit (I mean in DCS, not in real life). So this helicopter is much harder to use for ground strikes and it is very limited for such a usage. On the other hand, if you like offline campaigns then there is a very good campaigns for this helicopter. They are much more interesting than Ka-50 campaigns.

[Althar]

Correct me if I am wrong but the Mi-24 does seem like it'll be a similar beast to the Mi-8 in terms of how it flies & behaves. May have to get the KA-50 then. I believe I tried it out years ago when it was a standalone.

[The Autistic Squirrel]

Weeee, the Apache is coming... though it will be in early access, from ED's site that is... I probably should have prefaced with that. I like not correcting my posts, as if I spoke it, can't take back what's said, lol.

[Ramsay]

Originally posted by Althar:

That's what I understood but it wasn't clear if this is how the actual helicopter operates of if this is an incorrect implementation of the FM.

TL;DR:

It's an acknowledged issue with the Gazelle's existing FM/control scheme.

As the Gazelle's FM update is likely some time away, you should buy the Gazelle in the knowledge that although it is "fun" to fly, the FM is not wholly realistic ATM.

Joystick curves and saturation can be adjusted to give DCS's Gazelle a realistic "feel" according to RL pilots.

Detail:

A french pilot and US Army measurements confirm the Gazelle SA-342 flies similar to other helicopters and isn't "unique" in how it's cyclic/rotor disk interact with airflow. The US army assessed control sensitivity as being similar to a OH-58A except the main rotor turned in the opposite direction.

There's a RL Gazelle pilot who says PC's Gazelle flies realistically but who also says he looked out of the cockpit and never took notice to what position his cyclic, flying by feel - make of that what you will.

Polychop plan to port their new flight engine from the Kiowa (after it's release - hoped to be 2021) to the Gazelle to improve it's FM to a level where both they and the community are happy with it.

------------------------------------------------

I can't give you a "best choice" helicopter, as all the current helicopters have something to offer.

• Mi-8 Hip (metric)
The Hind was developed from the Hip, so if you are looking for an early training step for the Mi-24 Hind, the Hip would seem a good choice as they share many common switches and systems. AFAIK 2x Hip and 2x Hind were often paired in combat as troop transport and it's armed escort, so they worked well together IRL, not sure how it'll work in DCS.

• Ka-50 Black Shark (metric)
The Ka-50 also shares the same engines as the Hind and has analogous APU start, etc. and is arguably the best A2G attack helicopter in DCS. It's fairly complex to learn (moving map, GPS, data link, etc), once the auto-pilot is mastered it's fairly easy to fly, it doesn't really fly like a "typical" helicopter but YMMV.

• UH-1H Huey (imperial)
Huey is a good learning helicopter with a short/quick start up, it can carry a lot of ammo for it's mini-guns, serve as a Blue transport in MP, navigation is visual and radio. The huey has a strong well modelled ground effect, which while useful for training, might make transitioning to the Hind more difficult.
The Huey was the test bed for the multi-crew developed for the Hind.

Negatives are
- It's under powered in DCS since engine damage was added in 1.5.8 but power/temperature limits aren't an issue when training in a clean aircraft.

• SA-342M Gazelle (metric)
The Gazelle comes in 4x variants - HOT3, Rocket/Cannon, Mistral and side gunner. Flight controls are light and responsive once joystick curves/saturation have been adjusted. It has relatively modern (90's) instrumentation and radio/doppler navigation. The RWR for SA and VHF/UHF radios that allow you to contact AI AWACS, etc. for threat updates (which is a feature missing from other helicopters). IRL Iraqis used Mi-25 and Gazelle Hunter-Killer teams, with the Hind used to suppress troops/air defences and the Gazelle, it's HOT missiles to kill armour.

Negatives are
- default controls are overly sensitive until adjusted
- it has simplified displays for the HOT3,
- no navigation display on the TV (perhaps restricted info as hooked into RWR?),
- no AI for the side gunner
- an incomplete FM.

[Sizigmund]

Originally posted by Althar:

Correct me if I am wrong but the Mi-24 does seem like it'll be a similar beast to the Mi-8 in terms of how it flies & behaves. May have to get the KA-50 then. I believe I tried it out years ago when it was a standalone.

Both Mi-8MTV2 and Mi-24P have a classic helicopter scheme. They have a main rotor and a rudder rotor and they are created by the same manufacturer. So yes they may have some similarity but they have a different weight and a different fly characteristics. For example Mi-24P have a wings that are used mostly for a hanging missiles but they have an aerodynamic shape so they start creating some lifting force when helicopter flies fast. Mi-8MTV2 don't have such a wings and its main rotor blades are longer. So they are not exactly the same. But if you want to train yourself for flying Mi-24P, then the Mi-8MTV2 can be very good for such a purpose.
Ka-50 feels and flies completely different. I have flied it a lot of hours but when I went to Mi-8MTV2 I crashed about 20 times when I was just trying to take off. Then I crashed about 40 times just trying to land it.
Because of its coaxial system, Ka-50 forgives many errors that pilot make. Mi-8MTV2 won't forgive you nothing. It can much easier enter a vortex ring and just fall down like a brick. It is much harder to exit the vortex ring than on Ka-50. Mi-8MTV2 don't like vertical landing especially when the atmospheric pressure is low (high in the mountains for example). It is also hard to take it off when the atmospheric pressure is low. Not an easy helicopter in other words but if you like challenges then it may be better for you than Ka-50. Just remember that if you looking for a ground strike helicopter then Mi-8MTV2 will disappoint you. Ka-50 and upcoming Mi-24P is what you need for ground strike.

[Darkreaver1980]

Ka 50 gives handdown the best value for its money. It has several flight modes, strong weapon systems, color MFD, its the fastest helicopter in DCS

[Sizigmund]

Originally posted by razoleg (The Cunning Fox):

^except Blackie is out of service. And very few were built. It’s like flying an Airwolf: unless you’re into fantasy sh_t like Elder Scrolls, the immersion factor is nearly 0.

It was used in 2000 and 2001 in Chechnya republic. So this heli is not so fantasy. Yes, only a few trial models were created but at the end it was used as a base for Ka-52 creation. Now we won't get Ka-52 in this game nor Mi-28N or Mi-28NM.

You know, some people even using MiG-19P to fight F-16C in DCS and it is much more fantasy than flying Ka-50.
Anyway, do not buy and fly such a good helicopter only because it did not went into mass production, why? Just asume that it still in use and enjoy it. By the way a lot of planes in this game aren't currently in use anymore. I mean their modification that is represented in DCS are not in use nowdays.
I would really like to see flyable Su-57, MiG-35, MiG-31, Su-35, Su-30SM, Su-34, e.t.c. in this game. But unfortunately, we won't get these planes in this game.
So I prefer to enjoy what we do have.

[ForgedDragon_]

Barely any SU-33s were made and I don't see anyone complaining.

[Sizigmund]

Originally posted by Micheal Your Man:

Barely any SU-33s were made and I don't see anyone complaining.

Actually Su-33s were made alot. It still in use even nowdays but of course not the modification that we have in DCS but much more modern one. They were used in Syria not so long time ago. They worked from "Admiral Kuznetsov" alongside with MiG-29K and MiG-29KUB. So they are much realistic than Ka-50.
But anyway, we are not having a super realism in DCS, because for example campaign creators aren't a generals who knows how the realistic military operations are developed. They don't know which armored wehicles are used together as a squad. They don't know how the SAM systems are placed in real life and a lot of other things. So there is a lot of fictional things in this game. The PVP battles in multiplayer are a totaly unrealistic thing, but who cares? DCS is a very good simulator just enjoy flying your aircraft and have fun.

[Randy Lahey]

Originally posted by Althar:

Correct me if I am wrong but the Mi-24 does seem like it'll be a similar beast to the Mi-8 in terms of how it flies & behaves. May have to get the KA-50 then. I believe I tried it out years ago when it was a standalone.

Maybe just that they're both Russian, otherwise they will fly completely different (or should). One's transport, big, slow, and heavy, one's an attack/transport helicopter. The Mi8 is probably the most difficult helicopter for sure.

The Ka 50 is great, but the trimming/autopilot system is a weird one and takes a lot of getting used to...it flies nothing like any of the others. The Huey is the most 'helicopter-ish' of the bunch. What do you want? They're all quite different. My first one was the Ka 50 (it was the only one way back when), and that's probably what I'd buy first, unless you want low-tech, then go with the Huey.

[van Leeuwenhoek's mustache]

@Althar
What do you mean by "complement"?
Are you looking for an attack helo or a transport helo?

Hind is kind of a hybrid, it's an armored attack helo that can also do transport.
Because of this, I'd say it's a better option than the Mi-8 (which isn't really suitable for CAS and isn't armored).

I'm pretty sure Ka-50 will remain the best attack helicopter in DCS, at least until Apache comes along.

Now, if you want a bluefor helo, I'd wait for Kiowa and Apache.
If you don't want to wait, Gazelle can cover more roles than Huey and it's a bit faster.