I suck at dogfighting

[Rya]

Hi,
I bought the f16 a couple of weeks back and i learned the basics, A/G, missiles that sort of stuff and tried dogfighting against an AI mig 29, guns only, and i get absolutely destroyed everytime.
I've tried turning at different speeds between 450 and 200 kt IAS and not matter what i try the mig allways has a smaller turn radius.
And when i finally get on his six, the AI just goes into a loop and no matter what i do i can't pull lead without bleading off all my airspeed and stalling, or at least letting him turn behind me.
How would yo go about countering those kinds of manoeuvres in the F16 ?

[SSerponi76]

Here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EfZdUnGJkZU

Start from the basics.

[Rya]

Thanks, i already saw similar videos on turn radius and rate. I wasn't very clear in my first post. He doesn't have a hugely tighter turn radius but he still seems to outperform me when we're going at the same speed. Even when i hit my "sweet spot" corner speed, which is at around 350~370 i found, i can manage to merge with him face to face but he still has a few degrees of lead while i lag behind and can't shoot him. I don't really know how to deal with a plane which can outturn me.

[Rya]

I also don't know how to deal with the loops he does whenever i go behind him.

[Troll Norris]

https://youtu.be/OCFMX5z-ed4

[Troll Norris]

Do not turn with him. Try some out of plane maneuvers.
And remember. Tight turn does not mean fast turn.

[Enigmatic]

Ok do you have flaming Cliffs?
Su27 is best plane to learn on I think but all are good.

First and foremost. Think about Momentum / Energy.
You air speed is crucial to winning dog fights. Bleeding off energy is how you lose your edge.
Your air frame and the amount of G's you can pull are to be known. Watch your G meter and don't stress the air frame. Smoothness is key. Keep it before it gets stressed. Don't just max out your control surfaces. You want to maintain maximum amount of G's without shaking the airframe. Remain smooth and controlled. Maintain speed and control. This way when you come into a turning fight you can maximize speed and turning.

Two know when to climb and when to bleed speed.
In situations you got to keep eyes on bandits. If you have one on your Six make sure to keep him where not only you can see him but stay off his Bore. Basically, try to be in the opposite direction of his momentum. When you have opportunity to climb or dive. Do so and try to manouver the plane to throw him off your six than you can prep for attack.
F16 is good at turning but it's not as fast as F15. So if he is on your 6 out running him is unlikely you have to rely on out climbing him potentially try to get him to commit to a trap right before you go into a climb to get him below you.

Three, Maintain Altitude best you can in close range dog fight. Spiral turning fights happen but if you maintain slightly higher altitude you have more energy thus have more options than the bandit.

Anyway, it's just something to think about lots is instinct. But key point is don't over turn. Respect your airframes limits. And stay smooth, and don't bleed energy when you don't have to.

I don't have F16 but I can tell you it can climb very well in certain load outs. But if you have it armed to the teeth consider dropping fuel tanks and Using more BVR missiles before you close in as some weight savings will help.

Than later you can worry about Flaps and air brakes to try to get behind. Or the Cobra lol. But yeah, It's rare you want to bleed air speed. Usually it's if and only if he's pretty close behind you. and if he does over shoot you . If you slow down too much you won't have much time to react. But Nato has good Off bore sight missiles so that is a + for f16

Also you only have one Engine. So use afterburner where it counts. Think of it like under steering using your After burner too early. You want to push the plane in the direction you want to go. Not plow through your turns. Once your nose is facing where you want to go push the throttle up.

And last but not least. Don't fly straight at him try to predict his trajectory. Try to stay above him and slightly at an angle keeping a retreat open for yourself as well especially at BVR range. But Nato also has bit of edge there. But you still have to be careful. If you are chasing his tail you won't get good gun runs. I find with American guns you can make longer bursts as short bursts sometimes don't do enough damage.

[VRFlightGuyInPJPants]

I am no expert and definitely still learning.

First of all, IMHO, you may have picked one of the worst planes to dogfight against in the game: MiG-15, MiG-21, MiG-29, JF-17, F-16C and F-15A are some of the best dogfighters, others may disagree and I have to admit I have yet to fight many others. Try to setup a fight, guns-only, against something less terrifying, e.g. Su-25. Bear in mind it does not mean the Su-25 cannot shoot you down.

The others have mentioned the importance of energy much better than I can ever do. Another factor is situation awareness (SA). They say "you cannot fight what you cannot see". So if you are flying in VR or with TrackIR, it helps a lot. Also planes with helmet-mounted displays like MiG-29, Flanker series and F/A-18C, etc provide information you need to sustain the flight while you are looking at/for your enemy.

So arming with energy management and SA, the next thing is to think a lot. I watch a video about players fighting in M2K and JF-17 that "they do a lot of mental calculations on where the target will go next" and they act accordingly. In the game of football (the Americans call it soccer) has a term similar to "go where the ball will go but not chasing after it".

My £0.02, hope it helps.

[startrekmike]

Postat inițial de razoleg (The Cunning Fox):

Postat inițial de Troll Norris:

https://youtu.be/OCFMX5z-ed4

Very overrated vid, in my opinion.

Any particular reason?

[startrekmike]

Postat inițial de razoleg (The Cunning Fox):

The tactics have been revised time and time again. He also talks about a single engagement between two or so opponents. Mostly this is okay-ish for guns and simulators (not this kind, the ones they used in 80s to prove that US pilots can still fly).

There was a 50's video on Sabres, talking about working with your wingman. I believe that even though it's older, it's still far better.

Getting past the use of "overrated" as if it means anything beyond "I don't like this thing and I think others are wrong for thinking otherwise", I can't really think of anything in this video that is actually bad to know. I generally agree that it shouldn't be the only thing people look at (Shaw's 'Air Combat Maneuvering' book is much more complete and relevant to a wider variety of aircraft and situations) but it is still useful and still will give you some good chunks of info that other sources won't go into much detail about.

[Ho Chi]

Postat inițial de Dr.Voltex:

Thanks, i already saw similar videos on turn radius and rate. I wasn't very clear in my first post. He doesn't have a hugely tighter turn radius but he still seems to outperform me when we're going at the same speed. Even when i hit my "sweet spot" corner speed, which is at around 350~370 i found, i can manage to merge with him face to face but he still has a few degrees of lead while i lag behind and can't shoot him. I don't really know how to deal with a plane which can outturn me.

my findings are that the sweet spot is around the 410 -430 range pulling 7 ish G's sustained when in a pure rate fight has worked best for me , obviously when at the merge i tend to go a bit faster and trade speed for turn radius in the initial turns.

still though its a careful balance of rate , speed and maneuvering (careful adjustments to the stick , if i just pull hard i die due to no speed)

having said that though , once the F16 gets more updates to its flight mechanics then you should be pulling more towards 9G sustained.

[SSerponi76]

Postat inițial de razoleg (The Cunning Fox):

It is extremely overrated precisely because the tactics here rarely apply to actual combat, and, to top it off -- I have seen countless of internet flyboys point to this vid like it's the ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ holy grail.

Here's the thing: practicing what he says there makes you predictable. Predictable means dead.

Well Bro, Falcon 3.0 is a 1991 game: 30 years ago (damn, I was 14 years old at time !) so the video is obviously "outdated".
But still:
1) Most of the planes and wepons of DCS are of the same age of the video (80'-90')
2) The base BFM principles evplained there are still valid today.
3) As Pete Bonanni (the guy of the video) says at the begin, BFM is not like chess, where you have moves, counter for that move, counter-counter ... and so on: there is no recipe to win, but just understanding of some crucial principles and their "creative" application by the pilot.

Actual combat is much more BVR oriented, where one guy launch an Aim-120C from 30nm and the other guy suddenly blow up without having any warning, or having it when it is too late. But DCS is not properly "actual combat", otherwise we whould all fly in F-22, F-35, Su-57, Gripern, Rafale, Su-35, Mig-35 and latest Typhoon trance as "official" modules (not mods) instead of F-5, Viggen, Su-27, Mig-29, F-16 and F/A-18.
And many people in this game like to engage in BFM/ACM instead of BVR cause dogfights are a great fun (and require much more skill than just locking and AMRAAM from far away and squeeze the trigger)... And since you, (as me), like a lot the good old F-5 Tiger you will perfectly understand this.

I agree that the video is not at all the "holy grail" but stll is quite useful for beginners.

[VRFlightGuyInPJPants]

You remind me one thing: back in the day of MMO Warbirds, people preferred WW2 dogfights over more "modern" jets because the latter were all button-clicking and there was "no skill"...

I guess this never ends.

[Ho Chi]

Postat inițial de razoleg (The Cunning Fox):

Postat inițial de startrekmike:

Getting past the use of "overrated" as if it means anything beyond "I don't like this thing and I think others are wrong for thinking otherwise", I can't really think of anything in this video that is actually bad to know. I generally agree that it shouldn't be the only thing people look at (Shaw's 'Air Combat Maneuvering' book is much more complete and relevant to a wider variety of aircraft and situations) but it is still useful and still will give you some good chunks of info that other sources won't go into much detail about.

It is extremely overrated precisely because the tactics here rarely apply to actual combat, and, to top it off -- I have seen countless of internet flyboys point to this vid like it's the ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ holy grail.

Here's the thing: practicing what he says there makes you predictable. Predictable means dead.

im sorry but this is just not true , the fundementals never change and are as valid today as they were in WW2 with respects to BFM. the speeds may have changed but the basics never will. its the fundemental laws of physics and geometry at play , they are constants.

Being predictable is down to how you put these fundementals into practice , it is not the fundementals themselves.

[Troll Norris]

Yes, the laws of mechanics are still the same. e=ek+ep

[Broadsword]

Most important factor about the F-16: it has a limited angle of attack and can only pull so hard, around 28°, and there's no way to get around it. A plane like the F/A-18 has a G-override for a better instantaneous pull and has control when it's practically falling out of the sky because of its fly-by-wire controls.