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When it comes to dogfighting, the Hornet can maneuver a lot better at lower speeds but due to its lower thrust, it can't exactly regain energy very fast. You need to be more aware of maintaining speed in it. In contrast, the F-16's whole approach will be more about using the jet's really good thrust to maintain a speed advantage. It will also turn really well but you do need to be more careful about not getting too far below its ideal turn speed.
The "how hard is the F/A-18 and F-16 to learn" question is a bit more difficult to answer since I have seen the mindset behind those kinds of questions become a major obstacle for new players looking to get into the flight sim/DCS hobby. As of right now, the F-16 is "easier" to learn because a lot of its systems are not yet complete. There is less to learn and therefore it might seem "easier". That being said, when the Hornet and F-16 modules are both done, they will be pretty equal with the complication of the Hornet's carrier landings being the only major distinction.
To be bluntly honest, if you are willing to sit down and put some amount of genuine effort into learning, EVERY aircraft in DCS is pretty straightfoward to learn. I won't say they are "easy" to learn but you are not learning to fly real aircraft in a real military here. You can go at your own pace and take things one step at a time. It isn't going to be a quick process to learn how to be proficient (even on a basic level) in either the Hornet or the Viper but neither is so complicated that someone who is genuinely interested can't learn on their own with only the manual and maybe Chuck's guides as a guide.
At the end of the day, if you want to learn either aircraft enough to be effective, you are going to spend time learning the various avionics, sensors, weapons, and even the basic and advanced flying skills. You will need to do some degree of "book learning" and you will need to put some time into practicing each skill as you learn them. There is no way to shortcut that process that ends in any sort of real competency.
To put it even more bluntly. The learning process is a big part of DCS and its various aircraft modules. Sitting down and really delving into the systems and procedures is kinda the whole point. With that being said, there is something to keep in mind. You said that you are "lazy". That is a choice. It might take some effort but finding joy/entertainment value in simply learning a DCS module isn't always going to be automatic at first. Sometimes you need to learn to enjoy the learning process and that may involve putting some amount of genuine effort into forcing yourself to change your habits.
Here is a good example. When I started playing DCS back in 2011 or so, I really wasn't the kind of guy that got into reading manuals and the like. I figured that I could just watch some youtube videos and have some people take time out of their day to learn for me and teach me in simpler terms. For a while, that KINDA worked but eventually I reached a point where it was obvious that I needed to actually do the learning on my own if I ever wanted to learn the most advanced procedures and systems. At first, opening up the manual and trying to learn from it was a bit overwhelming but once I focused on starting from the beginning and just learning it section by section, piece by piece, the whole process became not only a lot easier but also a lot faster. I found that the learning process that originally was really hard to focus on and stay interested became my primary interest and my favorite part of DCS. It took some willpower on my part and it wasn't easy but it ended up being a dear hobby for me once I finally accepted that learning can indeed be fun IF YOU LET IT be fun. If you keep at it until the learning process doesn't feel like a obstacle you have to get over and instead the best part.
The last question about radar is not really something that one can answer on a steam forum post. This is especially going to be the case when you don't have any prior knowledge of the basic concepts to build on. Learning the radar on a modern jet like the Hornet or the Viper is really going to involve either (for the best possible result) opening the manual and going through the concepts in the sim via practice or watching some youtube videos that will kinda show you the concepts and the procedures. The radar in each plane isn't really hard to use or even hard to understand but it is something that we can't really explain in a forum post without it just being confusing for you. It is easier to learn it when you are in the sim and are able to do the various steps and see how everything looks.
1 - Both aircraft are comparable in a dogfight. The F-16 is somewhat lighter and IIRC a little more nimble but the F/A-18 holds onto that agility at heavier weights while the F-16 in CAT 3 (heavy loadout) mode flies like a bus. The aircraft performance however is less of a consideration. Generally speaking when you get up close it is pilot skill that counts for most. Even the more basic aircraft like the MiG-21 or F-5 will give you big problems if flown by a veteran with loads of experience.
2 - Neither are especially hard to learn so long as you have the interest. They do have their quirks you have to remember and they will eventually have a wide selection of tools but as a recent fighter everything is rather intuitive. Just take it a step at a time and you'll be flying and fighting in no time.
3 - Radar is a subject in it's own right and there really isn't a basic way to describe it. Instead try these links:
F-15 combat guide. This has a great section describing how a pulse doppler system works and this applies to both the 16 and 18:
https://www.mudspike.com/dcs-f-15c-combat-guide-for-beginners/
F-15 radar simulation tool. Again this is mainly for the F-15 but works great as an example of how scan volume works showing how contacts can appear and disappear as you change settings:
https://tawdcs.org/radar-f15/
Final point from me, don't worry about what other people say about modules. I know people that prefer the 16 even in its hugely incomplete state. I also know people that wouldn't trade their hornet for the world. It mostly boils down to going for the one you want the most. You say your heart is saying F/A-18, then that is your answer. The reason for this is very simple. If your heart is in it you will be more inclined to put in the effort to learn. It will be fun to learn rather than feeling like a chore and you will get more enjoyment from the sim and your module.
thank you both for the answer. I have another one
When people keep refereing to the learning curve or learning the modules what is meant by this??
i am just starting and for now i got a bit of idea about how the radar and its modes work for the F15, how to get into bvr modes and lock enemy, sidewinders, firing ranges, going defensive and some similar things (due to the instant action mission of F15)
so what else do we talk about when we say learning the game? as most people say DCS has a difficult learning curve, what is meant by that
Learning curve is a way to measure how much you have to learn to be effective. In DCS learning curve can be anything between shallow-ish of FC3 aircraft like F-15 to steep like in A-10C. F/A-18, which I highly recommend as starter module, has something in between. It is rather forgiving for flying errors, since it has Fly-by-wire (computerised flight controls). It has a great array of weapons, but you can start learning from A/A, which is easier from system aspect, and move into A/G when you need challenge. Or vice versa, if you feel the other way round.
So basically in DCS you HAVE to learn how to operate from ground bases, how to navigate (it's actually rather simple), how to live and let die and how to operate and employ basic aircraft systems essential for flying and fighting.
And then you CAN learn more in depth system management, like cold start, different weapon modes (especially pre-planned), carrier operations, IFR (instrument) operations, etc.
What people mean with "difficult" in DCS is the sheer amount of stuff to learn. But it's like eating elephant, piece by piece.
While it might be a somewhat controversial thing to say, I think that a lot of the talk in the community about a "difficult learning curve" is less about actual objective difficulty in learning the various systems and skills and more about time. Even the more complex DCS modules are still based on aircraft systems that have to be (on some level) relatively intuitive. Even the much feared A-10C module isn't really all that difficult to actually sit down and learn as long as you are willing to accept that some amount of practice and some amount of patience is involved.
To be honest. I think that a lot of people in the community get the time and difficulty thing mixed up. What's more. I think that a lot of people make their learning process more difficult by leaning too much on insufficient learning materials while being actively discouraged by some of the more vocal in the community to even engage with the learning materials that are most helpful. To give you a bit of a example. I recent got into a conversation with a major, popular DCS community member where he made it very clear that suggesting the manual that comes with a DCS module as a primary source of learning is "elitist" and that he would never do it. Perhaps this might have something to do with his need for likes and views for his own tutorials but I can't be sure of that.
As I said before. DCS modules are based on aircraft that have to be (at least on some level) intuitive to use. A lot of concepts you learn for one will carry over to others. For example. If you learn how to handle the A-10C, you will find that a lot of the concepts carry directly over to the F-16. Likewise, if you learn the F/A-18, you will find that it shares many commonalities with the AV-8B. Eventually, you will get to a point where you can hop into a module you just bought and get through the major aspects in a handful of afternoons. It will still take a while to master a given aircraft but as a whole, you will find that the learning process gets easier as you get further into it.
To kinda give you a example of what I am talking about, let me talk you through my standard "procedure" when I learn a new DCS module.
Immediately after installing a new module, I first make sure I locate the manual that comes with the module and put it on my laptop. If you have a laptop or a tablet, it is a good idea to always put your manuals on that so you can easily refer to the manual as you play without having to alt-tab or anything. If the module does not come with a good manual (which is pretty rare) or the manual is not complete yet, it might be a good idea to also put Chuck's guide for that module on your laptop/tablet as well. Some will say that Chuck's guides replace the manual but even the creator of the guides himself will tell you that they are more of a supplement and tend to work well alongside the manual.
With module firmly in hand, I then begin a step by step process as follows.
1.) Do a "cold and dark" start-up. This is a opportunity to go over the cockpit, locations of various instruments/panels, and how to read specific instruments if I am not already familiar with them. At this stage, I very carefully follow the full pre-start and start-up checklist and don't skip steps. Even the various tests and such that people will normally tell you to skip are going to help you understand where stuff is and the relationships between various systems. This isn't a difficult step and is really more about just going step by step and following the manual. Remember, you DO NOT NEED TO MEMORIZE this stuff. You can use the checklist for as long as you want. Real pilots are even expected to follow the checklist because sometimes memory will fail you and you will miss something important.
As a aside, I tend to do the FULL checklist start-up a few times in a row as a way to "test" my understanding of the cockpit layout. It doesn't typically take very long to do this and is a good strategy to retain what you are learning as you go.
2.) Do a checklist correct take-off, fly around, and land. The manual will usually outline a correct take-off and following that will ensure that you get off the ground without any serious mishap. Once you are in the air, take some time to just fly around and get a feel for it. Pay special attention to SMALL stick and throttle inputs and slowly work your way to more aggressive inputs. Practice maintaining precise speeds (without any sort of auto-throttle if a aircraft has it) and if the aircraft requires trim, make sure you understand how to get it to stable, largely "hands-free" flight. These are basic skills that will make EVERYTHING easier down the road.
When it comes to the landing, it can be a bit overwhelming for a new player but the manual has a section for this as well and it is usually detailed enough to get you through the whole process without incident. It is usually a good idea to pause the sim and go over the process a few times as it is written so that you don't get overwhelmed as you try it yourself. Landing properly isn't always easy but it really is just about following the procedures. You don't need to do this by eye, you can rely on the steps the manual sets out for you in terms of speeds, altitudes, and other procedures.
3.) Navigation/sensors/weapons. I put these all in the same step because I usually try to cover a bit of all of them in a single flight. In terms of navigation, this is usually a relatively straightforward process where I simply follow waypoints as I set them in the editor, practice inputting new waypoints, and work out the standard stuff like TACAN that are consistent across multiple aircraft. Again. This is usually done with the appropriate section of the manual open in front of me so I can simply follow the steps to get the desired result.
For sensors (radar, targeting pods), I usually have a few unarmed targets on the ground and in the air so that I can go over the manual's procedures and get a feel for how everything fits together. Generally speaking, a radar is a radar and a targeting pod is a targeting pod but sometimes individual aircraft have a few differences that you will need to understand in terms of procedures and limitations.
In regards to weapons, I handle it one major "system" at a time. When talking about aircraft like the F/A-18, F-16, F-14, AV-8B, A-10C, and such, you are going to find that they share a lot of weapons and the procedures and concepts don't really change all that much. If you learn to drop a Mk-82 dumb bomb in CCIP in one plane, you will understand how to handle just about all of the dumb bombs. Likewise, if you learn how to drop a laser guided bomb or a JDAM, the process and concepts won't change much between aircraft. The same can be said of air to air weapons like the AIM-9 and AIM-120. The concepts don't really change so learning it once will make learning it on another aircraft very quick and straightforward.
When learning these weapons, I break it up into major types. I go over the dumb bombs then laser guided, then JDAM's, and on and on like that. I don't try to learn them all at once.
4.) Specialized procedures. After getting through all the basic stuff listed above, I then dip my toe into some of the more demanding/advanced stuff for a given aircraft. For example, the F/A-18 is a carrier aircraft so learning proper carrier landing procedures becomes a good way to test myself on some of the other steps I listed above. Carrier landing involves understanding your navigation system and how to control that aircraft very precisely (especially throttle) without getting too "heavy handed" with the stick and throttle. This is one of the things in DCS that I genuinely do think is truly difficult to learn and master since it relies on a lot of practice and having a good feel for the stick and throttle. Just knowing the procedures isn't quite enough.
Another good example is air to air refueling. Like the carrier landing, this is a truly difficult process that can seem impossible (and extremely frustrating) at first. This is also the rare example of something that the manual can't really prepare you for since it is so focused on good formation flying, throttle control, and VERY fine stick control. I won't lie to you, this is really hard to do at first but if you follow some of the basic steps (don't focus on the basket/boom and instead focus on your position in relation to the tanker for example) and meaningfully practice, it will eventually "click" in your head and you will find it gets less and less intimidating.
The first time you go through this process, it will be a bit slow. You will have to build up a foundation of knowledge and while that might seem unexciting, it will make your life so much easier as you get deeper into the hobby. After you learn your first aircraft by yourself, you will find that the second is a MUCH quicker process. Eventually, you will reach a point where a new module comes out and while others are waiting for some youtuber to put out a abbreviated tutorial, you have already hit the ground running and are already learning at a good pace. You should endeavor to be self-sufficient in this hobby since it is just easier and faster than relying on others who may not always give you information that is correct and sometimes they may even give you information that makes it harder to learn as a whole.
There are a couple of other things that I should mention. The first is about binding controls. For newer players, it is tempting to go on a forum and ask for someone to give you a profile so that you don't need to set one up yourself. Don't do this. It will only make learning the aircraft harder. Instead of just learning the aircraft, you will also end up having to learn how someone else set up the controls. It is going to be a bit of a slow process the first time but setting up your own controls isn't really difficult (look up Matt Wagner's video about it on youtube if you need to understand the basic concepts). Eventually the process will take you minutes and while others are waiting for a charitable soul to upload a profile, you will already be flying.
The next thing is the mission editor. This is something that many overlook but it is a INCREDIBLY useful training tool that will make learning modules a lot easier for you. DCS modules usually come packaged with training missions, instant action missions, and other stuff but even the training missions are often buggy and don't really work very well. Being able to simply go into the editor and place a cold and dark aircraft on the tarmac, add in some waypoints, and maybe some trucks on the ground and a few aircraft flying a route in the sky is enough to cover just about everything without the distraction of training missions that don't always encourage comprehension and instead just tell you what to hit and when to hit it.
If you do end up digging deeper into the mission editor (which I HIGHLY encourage), you will be able to make some really good single player and even co-op missions for you and your friends to run. You will be able to control your own DCS experience as opposed to relying entirely on DCS's public server community that may or may not even provide the kind of missions and experiences you want. Again, being self-sufficient in this hobby will help you be the person that actually can enjoy the hobby on your own terms as opposed to sitting on forums and complaining (as a subset in this community tend to do).
Hopefully this helps.
man thanks a lot for such a detailed answer. much appreciated.
i will start one by one understanding things and then move on. once my flight stick arrives i am sure it will be a lot more fun
for now just flying around with a keyboard the F15 still feels fun.
Just to chime in with my 2 cents quickly, I highly recommend the F-18. Simply a beautiful aircraft and the possibility of carrier ops makes the module so much more fun. The Supercarrier add on is also releasing in a few days, which will undoubtedly provide a much more immersive experience compared to what's currently available.
If you derive your fun from DCS through challenging yourself to learn difficult systems/procedures, I can't think of a more rewarding task than a Case III carrier landing. I'm still somewhat struggling with Case I recoveries haha, but I've noticed myself getting better.
Anyway, I definitely recommend the F-18!
This might be kinda true if you already have a lot of experience with flight simming and perhaps even DCS's specific flight dynamics in particular but for a new player, sticking to the numbers will more reliably produce a good, consistent result.
True with props, with jets not so much. With older jets you can't deviate from given numbers or you might make yourself sink at rate which can't be recovered. With big and fast jets you run out of runway if you're not careful.
Use your guts, but do it within the limits given.
True with props, with jets not so much. With older jets you can't deviate from given numbers or you might make yourself sink at rate which can't be recovered. With big and fast jets you run out of runway if you're not careful.
Use your guts, but do it within the limits given. [/quote]
Yeah, that is kinda my feelings as well but I would add that when you are just starting out, the prop stuff can cause a lot of headaches on take-off and landing if you ignore the numbers and especially certain procedures. I have seen a ton of new players get really, really frustrated with WWII stuff in DCS because they ignored the correct procedures and constantly crashed on take-off and landing. Once they started paying attention to the right numbers and procedures, they immediately improved.
Using your guts is fine but as you said, it is more likely to work if you have at least some understanding of the limits.