Thrustmaster T.16000M Hotas or Thrustmaster Warthog Hotas

[Flip]

I am considering upgrading my hotas as the one I got has a VERY short cable between the thrust and stick which make it impractical to use.

Was wondering what people though of the T.16000 vs the Warhog. From what I understand the Warthog is very good but painfully expensive. The T.16000m is cheaper, anybody tried it?

Edit also the Warthog doesn't have twist rudder which means I need to buy pedals, not something I am that keen to do if possible.

[colonelbatguano]

Originally posted by Vern Winters:

Well I took the plung on the Warthog after going through some YT reviews. Also I have been studying the A10C vids and Chuck's guides and I think the WH will be really useful there. Looking forward to getting it.

So did I also when the F-16 comes you have the perfect joystick for that as well, since the A-10 stick is the same as in the F-16.

[Flip]

Originally posted by colonelbatguano:

Originally posted by Vern Winters:

Well I took the plung on the Warthog after going through some YT reviews. Also I have been studying the A10C vids and Chuck's guides and I think the WH will be really useful there. Looking forward to getting it.

So did I also when the F-16 comes you have the perfect joystick for that as well, since the A-10 stick is the same as in the F-16.

Ah that's good to know. I do want the F16 at some point as well since I grew up on DI's F-16 which I loved to death. Excited about an indepth sim for it.

[startrekmike]

I have to correct some misinformation stated in this thread. The Warthog absolutely has a analog slew on the throttle WITHOUT modding. It needs aggressive curves set in the sim but it is there none the less and will work if you are willing to adjust to it.

As far as the overall question, The Warthog wins out for one major reason. Its stick is designed to function well in a HOTAS arrangement. The controls on the Warthog stick compliment the controls on the throttle and give you enough options to comfortably bind just about everything you will need across multiple modules without requiring serious modifier use (which can slow you down).

The big issue with the T.16000 HOTAS stick is that it is really just a repackaging of the stand-alone stick. It is a basic, entry level stick with a single hat switch and a bunch of buttons on the base. This is fine for basic use but when you integrate it into a larger HOTAS arrangement, that single hat switch becomes a liability and the buttons on the base become poorly placed and just about useless for anything but non-essential aircraft functions you only occasionally mess with.

As a entry level, low-cost HOTAS solution, the T.16000 setup is fine. Thrustmaster should have designed a different stick for it but it still works. If you have the money to get a Warthog, I think that is the better option since it offers more logical controls arranged in a logical way. Likewise, the basic design of the Warthog throttle allows for more precision which will help with everything from formation flying to mid-air refueling.

[Flip]

Having been trying it out some I vouch for the Warthog stick because of all the hats and switched on the stick & throttle make managing the cockpick sooo much easier. When I first tried with my old stick I had to rely on a LOT of awkward keyboard commands, now it is all done from the stick which is great.

Only thing that is not great is rudder, never used one before and I cannot get my feed to coorporate nor get the rudder to feel *right*. It's either way to sensitive or not sensitive enough and either way my rudder movements are all over the place :/ But for the stick, the warthog is fantastic

[[TFA]Wolf]

Originally posted by Orlock:

I have the Tflight pedals with the warthog hotas and they work just fine in my setup. They have a small footprint too which fits my current space nicely.

Yeah they are a bit tight, but thankfully they are no "nutcrushers"........;)
They work well with the rest of the Warthog and can easily be combined into one device, if you need a profile for an old game or sim, or even if you say run a racing sim that can only take 3 extra USB-input devices, like old rfactor or GTR2.

I would like a wider spacing between the pedlas and a tension wheel though to make it heavier and more noticeable once you go out of the middle position.
It doesn't happen often that I leave that position without noticing, but I would like if that doesn't happen at all. ;)

The software is quite powerful, but in all honesty I haven't quite figuered it out fully yes.

As for the Analog slew, well nope you have it on there, but the little mouse-stick is a bit rubbish imho and that is done better on the T.16000m FCS throttle.
Frankly if I could get that as a replacement part, I would prefer it.

On the plus side for the WH, it is rock solid, the stick never slips.
I have only had problems with the afterburner detent and the throttle, I have once or twice accidently lifted and dragged it.....;)
I don't like that the "feet" of the throttle which links it to the axis are plastic, I would have preferred steel or metal for more stability.

On the other hand it feels nice, has a dual stage trigger, rather impotant for the A-10 and also the Viper, or any WW2 Warbird that has cannons and machine guns.
Ergonomics are great and the multitude of 4-Way switches lets you set up everything, the TMS, DMS and CMS as well as the trim, even without working in the Target software.

The Throttle also works nicely as a button box for simracing.

@Vern Winters concering the rudder, afaik that needs a bit of curvature in the axis to feel right.

[unknown]

Originally posted by Vern Winters:

Having been trying it out some I vouch for the Warthog stick because of all the hats and switched on the stick & throttle make managing the cockpick sooo much easier. When I first tried with my old stick I had to rely on a LOT of awkward keyboard commands, now it is all done from the stick which is great.

Only thing that is not great is rudder, never used one before and I cannot get my feed to coorporate nor get the rudder to feel *right*. It's either way to sensitive or not sensitive enough and either way my rudder movements are all over the place :/ But for the stick, the warthog is fantastic

The thrustmaster rudder pedals and the saitek ones are not very good rudder pedals. they tend to have issues with sticking and overall accuracy issues and overall can be finicky and more difficult than needed. Sadly rudder pedals are the one peripheral that doesn't get much love asside from the top end stuff. My recomendation would the the VKB t-rudder due to it being the cheapest high end pedal and they are much easier to use than the others. Many people will complain about a lack of toe breaks or the the fact that they are a pivot rather than a slide, however toe breaks are only really used in the wwii planes (and this can be solved with software provided by vkb) and the fact that they don't slide actually allows for better accuracy.

I have owned nearly every stick, pedal and throttle on the market as of now so i can definitly give you some other options depending on price range. I have owned a variety of the saitek sticks, the thrustmaster t16000M throttle and stick, thrustmaster hotas warthog, vkb gladiator mk2, vkb gunfighter mk2 mcg pro, saitek pedals, ch products pedals, vkb pedals, and have used my friends virpil stick although only have a couple of hours with that. Anyway i have a lot of experience with flight sim products and will tell you everything about a variety of sticks based off of my hundreds of hours with all of the mentioned products (asside from virpil which i have 2)

[Flip]

Originally posted by unknown:

Originally posted by Vern Winters:

Having been trying it out some I vouch for the Warthog stick because of all the hats and switched on the stick & throttle make managing the cockpit sooo much easier. When I first tried with my old stick I had to rely on a LOT of awkward keyboard commands, now it is all done from the stick which is great.

Only thing that is not great is rudder, never used one before and I cannot get my feed to coorporate nor get the rudder to feel *right*. It's either way to sensitive or not sensitive enough and either way my rudder movements are all over the place :/ But for the stick, the warthog is fantastic

The thrustmaster rudder pedals and the saitek ones are not very good rudder pedals. they tend to have issues with sticking and overall accuracy issues and overall can be finicky and more difficult than needed. Sadly rudder pedals are the one peripheral that doesn't get much love asside from the top end stuff. My recomendation would the the VKB t-rudder due to it being the cheapest high end pedal and they are much easier to use than the others. Many people will complain about a lack of toe breaks or the the fact that they are a pivot rather than a slide, however toe breaks are only really used in the wwii planes (and this can be solved with software provided by vkb) and the fact that they don't slide actually allows for better accuracy.

I have owned nearly every stick, pedal and throttle on the market as of now so i can definitly give you some other options depending on price range. I have owned a variety of the saitek sticks, the thrustmaster t16000M throttle and stick, thrustmaster hotas warthog, vkb gladiator mk2, vkb gunfighter mk2 mcg pro, saitek pedals, ch products pedals, vkb pedals, and have used my friends virpil stick although only have a couple of hours with that. Anyway i have a lot of experience with flight sim products and will tell you everything about a variety of sticks based off of my hundreds of hours with all of the mentioned products (aside from virpil which i have 2)

Thanks for the reply! If fact the thing I think that frustrates me is these Thrustmaster rudders slide. So if I don't have a deadzone, merely putting my feet on them causes the rudder to haywire and if I do have a deadzone I tend to over compesate. Then they slide up & down and for some reason I just cannot control the damn things.

I have not had rudders before so I was expecting press rudders which I think would be much better, you can control a press more than the slide as with the slide unless you keep your feet perfectly still any up/down deviation makes a movement. But it seems that DCS World will not accept a rudder press. This seems to be because the press is an axis but the axis rudder only allows one axis input, i.e left foot or right foot but not both. I tried using press on the non axis keybinds but no avail.

If you have any suggestions if it is possible to use the rudder press (as that function exists on the steps) that would be highly appreciated.

[unknown]

Originally posted by Vern Winters:

Originally posted by unknown:

snip

Thanks for the reply! If fact the thing I think that frustrates me is these Thrustmaster rudders slide. So if I don't have a deadzone, merely putting my feet on them causes the rudder to haywire and if I do have a deadzone I tend to over compesate. Then they slide up & down and for some reason I just cannot control the damn things.

I have not had rudders before so I was expecting press rudders which I think would be much better, you can control a press more than the slide as with the slide unless you keep your feet perfectly still any up/down deviation makes a movement. But it seems that DCS World will not accept a rudder press. This seems to be because the press is an axis but the axis rudder only allows one axis input, i.e left foot or right foot but not both. I tried using press on the non axis keybinds but no avail.

If you have any suggestions if it is possible to use the rudder press (as that function exists on the steps) that would be highly appreciated.

Yea you do not need a deadzone for the vkb t-rudder pedals and you can switch between a hard bump in the middle or no bump at all and normal and high tension. The action is a push down so it uses your ankle rather than your knees which leads to much better accuracy.

It technically isn't as realistic as the other version of rudder pedals, however it is a game and for the most part in a real aircraft the rudder will feel different from plane to plane ex the cesna requires you to put you heel on the ground and you press the rudder with the ball of your foot similar to these pedals whereas other planes have a full on copping design where you control it with your knees so really what matters most is how comfortable it is for you to use.

Rudder pedals are far more important than most people realize and due to the fact that most of the flight simming community tend to have medium grade sticks with low quality pedals (saitek ch products and thrustmaster are all low quality) they don't realize how much it impacts their ability to control their aircraft.

It is also why i am certain in around 2-3 years time if not sooner you will be looking to upgrade your thrusmtaster hotas warthog stick due to the not so great gimble in it. (get a virpil base btw since it is plug and play with the fantastic warthog grip) anyway warthog is a medium grade stick and the high end stuff is very expensive (my vkb gunfighter mk2 cost me 500 for just the stick) so the thrustmaster is probibly one of the best stick that people can justify buying who aren't building a flight setup that costs more than their pc

[Dankan37]

Originally posted by Vern Winters:

Are pedals neccessary?

Honestly I don't think pedals are a must, some throttles have the same axis behind, making it much simpler to use and cheaper in general.

[[TFA]Wolf]

Originally posted by Dankan37:

.....snip.....

Honestly I don't think pedals are a must, some throttles have the same axis behind, making it much simpler to use and cheaper in general.

Depends on what you fly, the F-16 nope, most modern fixed wing fighters no, but for Warbirds it's pretty much a must and a definite must if you fly helos.
You can fly Warbirds without pedals, if you have a twist stick, but it's not really good.
I had a friend who had nothing but trouble with the twist stick flying Warbirds back in IL-2 FB/1946, because he had a ton of unwanted rudder inputs.

Flying Helos without rudders however is an exercise in frustration, the twist stick is just not precise enough.

Originally posted by unknown:

The thrustmaster rudder pedals and the saitek ones are not very good rudder pedals. they tend to have issues with sticking and overall accuracy issues and overall can be finicky and more difficult than needed. Sadly rudder pedals are the one peripheral that doesn't get much love asside from the top end stuff. My recomendation would the the VKB t-rudder due to it being the cheapest high end pedal and they are much easier to use than the others. Many people will complain about a lack of toe breaks or the the fact that they are a pivot rather than a slide, however toe breaks are only really used in the wwii planes (and this can be solved with software provided by vkb) and the fact that they don't slide actually allows for better accuracy.

I have owned nearly every stick, pedal and throttle on the market as of now so i can definitly give you some other options depending on price range. I have owned a variety of the saitek sticks, the thrustmaster t16000M throttle and stick, thrustmaster hotas warthog, vkb gladiator mk2, vkb gunfighter mk2 mcg pro, saitek pedals, ch products pedals, vkb pedals, and have used my friends virpil stick although only have a couple of hours with that. Anyway i have a lot of experience with flight sim products and will tell you everything about a variety of sticks based off of my hundreds of hours with all of the mentioned products (asside from virpil which i have 2)

Agreed on the TFRP and the Saitek ones not being top notch........the TFRP having a bit too tight a "track" and the Saitek having too much plastic and well, Saitek drivers are often more hassle than they worth.

Also the Construction out of plastic is problematic and you can easily damage the tension wheel of the Saitek Pro Flight Rudder Pedals by over-tightening them, which can make the lower half snap-off.
Another problem is that the hooks on which the counter-pressure springs for the toe-brakes, which are reasonably strong, are made of plastic too.......and they broke.

Got the TFRP then because a) I needed pedals, b) it was at the height of the Saitek Driver Crisis, back when you couldn't use them on the same system as an Intel USB 3.0 Driver without it crashing the system.........and c) after buying the Warthog for the same reason as b) aka the only thing cheaper being a Saitek X-55........I did not have the money for the MFG Crosswind. (Yeah that was before the TPR, before the T.16000 came out

Concerning the VKB Pedals, IMHO those are mostly Helo pedals from the layout, haven't heard anything bad about them, but yeah the missing toe brakes are a minus.
You kinda need those in early 50's to 60's planes.....and occasionally they do help with modern fighters.
Or in a way with the Mig-21, which IRL has a brake handle on the stick, which is an axis and uses that plus the rudder for steering on the Ground.

As I mentioned earlier the MFG Crosswind are a set of very good pedals, some have described them as the pedals after which you don't ever need a new set.
http://www.simhq.com/air-combat/mfg-crosswind-pedals.html

EU VAT included they go for 320€ or 256€ without VAT.
https://mfg.simundza.com/products


Also whichever pedals you use @Vern Winters, you will need some time to get used to them, your brain needs to get used to using your feet to steer as well.
A bit like learning to fly a helo, but less taxing.

What's also important is to have a good seat which accomodates your a bit more leaned back posture with pedals.

[unknown]

Originally posted by Wolf:

Originally posted by Dankan37:

.....snip.....

Honestly I don't think pedals are a must, some throttles have the same axis behind, making it much simpler to use and cheaper in general.

Depends on what you fly, the F-16 nope, most modern fixed wing fighters no, but for Warbirds it's pretty much a must and a definite must if you fly helos.
You can fly Warbirds without pedals, if you have a twist stick, but it's not really good.
I had a friend who had nothing but trouble with the twist stick flying Warbirds back in IL-2 FB/1946, because he had a ton of unwanted rudder inputs.

Flying Helos without rudders however is an exercise in frustration, the twist stick is just not precise enough.

Originally posted by unknown:

snip

Agreed on the TFRP and the Saitek ones not being top notch........the TFRP having a bit too tight a "track" and the Saitek having too much plastic and well, Saitek drivers are often more hassle than they worth.

Also the Construction out of plastic is problematic and you can easily damage the tension wheel of the Saitek Pro Flight Rudder Pedals by over-tightening them, which can make the lower half snap-off.
Another problem is that the hooks on which the counter-pressure springs for the toe-brakes, which are reasonably strong, are made of plastic too.......and they broke.

Got the TFRP then because a) I needed pedals, b) it was at the height of the Saitek Driver Crisis, back when you couldn't use them on the same system as an Intel USB 3.0 Driver without it crashing the system.........and c) after buying the Warthog for the same reason as b) aka the only thing cheaper being a Saitek X-55........I did not have the money for the MFG Crosswind. (Yeah that was before the TPR, before the T.16000 came out

Concerning the VKB Pedals, IMHO those are mostly Helo pedals from the layout, haven't heard anything bad about them, but yeah the missing toe brakes are a minus.
You kinda need those in early 50's to 60's planes.....and occasionally they do help with modern fighters.
Or in a way with the Mig-21, which IRL has a brake handle on the stick, which is an axis and uses that plus the rudder for steering on the Ground.

As I mentioned earlier the MFG Crosswind are a set of very good pedals, some have described them as the pedals after which you don't ever need a new set.
http://www.simhq.com/air-combat/mfg-crosswind-pedals.html

EU VAT included they go for 320€ or 256€ without VAT.
https://mfg.simundza.com/products


Also whichever pedals you use @Vern Winters, you will need some time to get used to them, your brain needs to get used to using your feet to steer as well.
A bit like learning to fly a helo, but less taxing.

What's also important is to have a good seat which accomodates your a bit more leaned back posture with pedals.

yea they are helo style pedals and you have to use the t-link software for dcs (works nativly in il2) in order to get toe breaks which require a break lever or button and you just push the rudder in the direction youw ant to break with the center being both wheels similar to the mig 21 which i have found isn't an issue and pretty easy to use and do. Main reason for the vkb over mfg corsswinds is the price and accuracy. The mfg crosswinds are significantly more expensive right now and the main issue isn't with the pedals themselves, but with biology being your knee joint isn't as percise as your ankle leading to better percision with the vkb ones over the crosswinds, however the crosswind pedals are more realistic as far as rudder pedal actions for many planes (less accurate for others but depends on the plane). I have seen people move from mfg crosswinds to vkb pedals and vice versa and the difference tends to be overall in individual preferance as far as which is better so I personally rate them as completely equil in quality where choosing one over the other will be more of a personal preferance rather than quality.

Main reason i recomend the vkb over the crosswind is based off what the op is buying. he is buying a thrustmaster warthog and the cheapiest pedals one can buy which leads me to believe that op has a bit of budgeting concerns. I mean the obviously best route would be a full vkb/virpil stick with the virpil/thrustmaster throttle mixed with the mfg crosswinds, but given that that setup would be at a total cost of $1100+ (more than double his current setup even if you add vkb pedals) and i find that cost is a major factor for people. I personally tell people building their end goal rig to avoid thrustmaster, but people looking for medium quality with price being a concern the trustmaster stuff is good

[[TFA]Wolf]

Fully agree on the cost issue and the Virpils are very good from what I've heard....with some saying the best combo would be the Virpil gimbal with the Warthog stick. ;)
Mainly for functionality.

Cost is a serious issue and can be a hurdle for people entering all kinds of simming, simracing is just as bad. Everyone there tells you to go for Fanatec instead of TM or go direct Drive to begin with, but Fanatec is really, really pricey.......and with the DD wheels the sky is the limit.

We lack a good value for money brand.....especially since Saitek went towards something you couldn't even touch.
The T.16000 is something for the low cost region, but it is a bit of a mix and match, a bit halfbaked.
Support for the WT is good though.

Isn't it ironic, TM used to be the be all end all, if you could avoid the monday morning builds, and now they are surpassed. ;)

[unknown]

Originally posted by Wolf:

Fully agree on the cost issue and the Virpils are very good from what I've heard....with some saying the best combo would be the Virpil gimbal with the Warthog stick. ;)
Mainly for functionality.

Cost is a serious issue and can be a hurdle for people entering all kinds of simming, simracing is just as bad. Everyone there tells you to go for Fanatec instead of TM or go direct Drive to begin with, but Fanatec is really, really pricey.......and with the DD wheels the sky is the limit.

We lack a good value for money brand.....especially since Saitek went towards something you couldn't even touch.
The T.16000 is something for the low cost region, but it is a bit of a mix and match, a bit halfbaked.
Support for the WT is good though.

Isn't it ironic, TM used to be the be all end all, if you could avoid the monday morning builds, and now they are surpassed. ;)

actually the most cost effective hotas is pairing the thrusmtaster t16000m throttle with the vkb gladiator mk2 which should run you around $180 ish and the gladiator has a good gimble and plenty of buttons along with a decent throttle. Not to mention the twist axis is very good on the gladiator and is the only stick i found to be compairable to rudder pedals. It is as accurate as cheap rudder pedals though nothing can tough quality ones

https://vkbcontrollers.com/?product=vkb-sim-gladiator
+
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1331331-REG/thrustmaster_2960754_twcs_throttle.html?ap=y&smp=y&lsft=BI%3A514&gclid=CjwKCAjw44jrBRAHEiwAZ9igKHBVIE_701KpmiWpqO8QuR1UHXGemfeT_xOEXOTCMV1uDiC85wXMeBoCpqoQAvD_BwE

i say 180 due to shipping costs but this is an economical one that i recomend due to the percision of the gladiator mk2 gimble and many buttons on the gladiator mk2 along with the many buttons and action tf the thrusmtaster throttle

For a while i literally replaced my warthog stick with that gladiator mk2 for wwii games and it has a tone of buttons due the feature of a modifier button programed by default to double the amount of buttons you see on that stick

[Disgruntled Cuttlefish]

Originally posted by Flip:

Are pedals neccessary?

No but it still helps a great deal once accustomed to using them; I'd think especially for the WW2 planes as might be thought, maybe totally necessary then, it'll make it much more worthwhile and enjoyable.

I would suggest avoiding the cheap TM rudder pedals, since I got them and I don't think they are very decent and I feel the need to have the controls indicator shown constantly as they cannot center well. I'd suggest a nicer set of rudder pedals from the get-go.