MiGs and Sukhois

[Feanorian01]

As the title indicates, this discussion is primarily focused on 'MiGs and Sukhois'! However, it should be noted that other jets can be included, and by 'MiGs and Sukhois', I mean MiG-29s and Su-27/33s. Now, I'll be happy to help if anyone needs it, but I have a question of my own, to.

I'm flying the MiG-29S and Su-27 (as opposed to MiG-29A/G and Su-33), but I've noticed that, when flying the MiG-29S and using the R-77, it usually misses, at least compared to the R-27ER of the Su-27. Why?

[Emperor of The Great Unknown]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από euraptor.2005:

As the tile indicates, this discussion is primarily focused on 'MiGs and Sukhois'! However, it should be noted that other jets can be included, and by 'MiGs and Sukhois', I mean MiG-29s and Su-27/33s. Now, I'll be happy to help if anyone need it, but I have a question of my own, to.

I'm flying the MiG-29S and Su-27 (as opposed to MiG-29A/G and Su-33), but I've noticed that, when flying the MiG-29S and using the R-77, it usually misses, at least compared to the R-27ER of the Su-27. Why?

There are many reasons why a missile would miss. In general the longer range the launch the more time the enemy has to deal with the missile and defeat it. Also firing at a target which is traveling across your screen, perpendicular with a radar missile can sometimes make your missile lose lock. Espescially the active missiles such as the R-77. If it is pitbull and is relying on its own guidance and radar then it is more likely to be fooled by chaff. So best to keep radar lock until a missile is pitbull.

As far as DCS russian missiles have a tendency to just be duds sometimes. I have fired missiles that have just tracked straight ahead with a target lock before. I dont know if this is a DCS thing or if it is a real characteristic of Russian missiles.

[bozont_svk]

iam not 100% sure but they are not fire and forget types...can be you have to hold the lock the whole time.

[Troll Norris]

Fire and forget A-A missiles are only IR guided, R-77 and AIM-120
The problem is:
R-77 is not 100% fire and forget. Same AIM-120
Keep on mind that built-in radar in missile is much smaller and has much less power than your onboard radar. So first you have to guide the missile by your onboard radar until the missile radar is in range. In F-15 you can see the countdown for AIM-120. In Mig-29 is nothing like that.

When the target flies at 90° to the radar source, you or your radar guided missile can easily lose the lock. This maneuver is called radar notch. Because aircrafts uses pulse doppler radar. When you fly in angle 90°to the radar source, you have relatively 0 speed to the radar so it can not see you.

More about that is here:
http://www.mudspike.com/dcs-f-15c-combat-guide-for-beginners/
Find title "Terminator Vision: How does a Pulse Doppler Radar see the world?" It is in the middle of page.

[Feanorian01]

Okay, I think I understand. I know that the R-27 radar variants are not fire-and-forget, and that IR missiles are. I usually try to get in close with the R-77 before changing to another target, and sometimes I hit without keeping the target locked at all. So, what do you think? Maybe wait until 5-6 nm away from the target, or until it reaches 'no escape zone' (I know it doesn't actually mean that)? I'm talking about when to fire, of course, not when to release lock. I usually do that a few seconds after fire.

And, what wordly use is the R-60M? or the R-27R/T? I just go for R-27ER/ET, R-73 and R-77. I use the R-73 with both MiG-29S and Su-27, but I can only use the R-77 with the MiG-29S, so I usually leave the R-27ER/ET to the Su-27.

Lastly, how come Su-25s usually evade me? And, is their armor strong enough to withstand a hit?

[Emperor of The Great Unknown]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από euraptor.2005:

Okay, I think I understand. I know that the R-27 radar variants are not fire-and-forget, and that IR missiles are. I usually try to get in close with the R-77 before changing to another target, and sometimes I hit without keeping the target locked at all. So, what do you think? Maybe wait until 5-6 nm away from the target, or until it reaches 'no escape zone' (I know it doesn't actually mean that)? I'm talking about when to fire, of course, not when to release lock. I usually do that a few seconds after fire.

And, what wordly use is the R-60M? or the R-27R/T? I just go for R-27ER/ET, R-73 and R-77. I use the R-73 with both MiG-29S and Su-27, but I can only use the R-77 with the MiG-29S, so I usually leave the R-27ER/ET to the Su-27.

Lastly, how come Su-25s usually evade me? And, is their armor strong enough to withstand a hit?

When to fire a missile is not an easy question to answer as it depends on the situation the BVR tactics you are using. Although dont break lock until your missile is at least within 5 km of the target. (unless you have to of course)

The other missiles are of course earlier variants. If a server restricts certain weapons you may have ot use older missiles.

[Vilab]

su-25 are quite slow airplanes, and they usually fly lower than you, that means the missiles you fire at them are more likely to miss ( radar notch for R-27(E)R and R-77, low thermal print for R-27(E)T / R-73 / R-60M ).

[Feanorian01]

I suppose so, but ironically, I usually end up flying under them! As for the R-77, I decided to only fire when I was in 'no escape zone', and to not release the lock until the missile impacted. While probably not a foolproof plan, it works quite well. It's annoying that it isn't completely fire-and-forget, and that it isn't as far-ranged as the AIM-120B/C and the R-27ER/ET, which have the same range. Oh, well.

[Emperor of The Great Unknown]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από euraptor.2005:

I suppose so, but ironically, I usually end up flying under them! As for the R-77, I decided to only fire when I was in 'no escape zone', and to not release the lock until the missile impacted. While probably not a foolproof plan, it works quite well. It's annoying that it isn't completely fire-and-forget, and that it isn't as far-ranged as the AIM-120B/C and the R-27ER/ET, which have the same range. Oh, well.

I thought the R 27ET out ranges the AIM-120C?

[Troll Norris]

SU-25T has special IR jammer in its tail. I guess it works in similar way like radar jammer. It emitch very strong infrared light beam so the missile's IR sensor is dazzled by this IR jammer light source. Just like in darknes someone dazzles you by sharp light.

And yes, SU-25T is quite sturdy aircraft.

[Feanorian01]

Okay, thanks for all your help! I can check, but I think the R-27ER/ET has the same range as the AIM-120B/C. I'm actually going against the pure Su-25 (as in, not Su-25T), but I've found out 2 things: 1, because it's flying straight at me, using an R-77 works quite well. And, 2, I figured out how to make my wingman start doing stuff, so I have more missiles for the Mirage 2000-5s.

[Feanorian01]

Okay, I checked my figures, and here it is. By the way, I'll also include other American and Russian missiles, as well as French missiles. This is mainly for me to remember, not because it affects the discussion.

R-60M/R550 Magic II: 5km

AIM-9B/P/P5: 11km

R-73: 15km

AIM-9M: 18km

R-27T/Super 530D: 40km

AIM-7M: 45km

R-27R/R-77/Mica EM/Mica IR: 50km

AIM-120B/C: 55km

R-27ER/R-27ET: 70km

R-33: 100km

AIM-54C: 150km

I hope this helps.

[Feanorian01]

Alright, just a few more questions, and I think this discussion will be over. Obviously, if anyone has a question of their own, they can ask it here. It doesn't even have to be related to the MiG-29S "Fulcrum-C" or the Su-27 "Flanker-B", though I know the most about those 2 FC3 jets. By the way, these questions are about the M-2000C (which is properly known as the Mirage-2000C), which I'm intending on getting come Christmas.

1-Does it require the NTTR map, or can I fly it with my Cacausus map?

2-Does it have proper training missions, like the Su-25T and Su-27, or just tutorials like the A-10A and F-15C? Tutorials are okay, I guess, but I'd much rather have the interactive training missions.

3-Lastly, does it have any Instant Action and Singleplayer missions of its own, as well as a campaign or 2, or does it just have the aircraft?

[Vilab]

1 - you can play it both in Caucasus and Nevada

2 - Training is on Caucasus only, with training missions ( some parts are outdated thought ), and the campaign which ends the training

3 - there are some instant action missions, on both Caucasus and Nevada.
i think there are some SP mission on Caucasus too ( i can't remember )
There is a great campaign on Caucasus, there is also a DLC campaign on Nevada which is being developped.

the current beta manual is great ( lot of usefull pictures ) but unfinshed, the final manual is in active developpment.


you may consider buying it on Standalone if you plan to get incoming modules/campaigns/maps in Early access, because the M-2000C ( and the Viggen ) are "only Steam" or "only standalone".

[Feanorian01]

Good, I didn't want to have to get the Nevada map. It sounds really fun and detailed, and I think I'll stick with Steam for now. I can't wait to get it, though right now I'm learning the MiG-29S and the Su-27, and I want to get the Su-27 Ultimate Argument campaign, as well. Are clickable cockpits super complicated? I know it has one. Can I program my joystick to do some stuff, and can I use the keyboard as an alternative to the clickable cockpit?

[Troll Norris]

M2K is still in early acess. So there is not everything made to final look.