What module to start with?

[Big Poppa Shmee]

So, I won't be able to purchase this for awhile but I've been thinking about what plane module I'd want to buy. I've been leaning towards the Mig 21. From what I've read, for its time, its a good dogfighter, its a good bomber/ground attacker, and it can shoot some AA missiles and stuff too so its not completely left in the dust against other newer 3rd and 4th gen aircraft.

I've got ADHD so I get bored very easily, so that's why the multirole aspect of the Mig 21 appealed to me. Also, I've always had a thing for the Russian jets, and unlike a lot of the other ones, which seem to be duds sorta (Mig 27/Mig 29), the Mig 21 was actually a badass plane, and compared well and even in some cases was flat out better than the competition it faced. Pretty impressive that some vietnamese pilots with 1/10th the flight time could still shoot down F5's and F4 phantoms, and F105's.

Its honestly a pretty legendary plane, it proved its worth. Also compared to the flight manual in the A10, its a lot shorter, and since I've never dealt with a sim on this level, I think being able to learn the actual controls faster will be better for me. But, I'm still open to other planes as well.

The mirage 2000, I remember that plane from wings over israel. Looks awesome, and can actually beat a Su 27 in a dogfight in the opening manuvers before it bleeds all its energy away. I don't know anything about the Saab 37 Viggen, but its a sexy enough looking aircraft. As I understand it the version in game is more of an attacker, and can't do BVR combat at all? Then there is another obviously choice, the F5E. I suspect that, once I eventually make my choice, if I go with the Mig, I'll eventually buy this one as well.

Besides those 4, the rest don't really interest me. They are too slow. If you can't do mach 2, I'm not really interested in flying it. Shame too because I hear they are actively working on the F18, but that can't do mach 2. I heard Russian jets are still really secretive, so there probably won't be a modern Su 27 hardcore sim.

Anyways, what are your thoughts. Is the F5E the equalizer kinda for the Mig 21, where its just a better plane overall basically? I know the mirage will beat both in a dogfight and BVR, and I know nothing about the Viggen.

[george47mathew]

Escrito originalmente por Sandy:

Escrito originalmente por george47mathew:

The F 5 is not exactly a cold war plane.

An aircraft designed, produced and distributed throughout the cold war to various US allies in the hundreds is the very textbook example of a cold war era plane.

Escrito originalmente por george47mathew:

The Mig 21 can't even win a turn fight against an AI F-4 phantom... unless you use flaps.

If we mess the tight turn, it wobbles and goes into a forced unrecoverable stall.

The AI planes use simplistic flight models which often underplay or exceed the limitations of the actual aircraft / player flight model by far, everything plays out entirely different in multiplayer.

It's also highly questionable of you to hold turnfighting as some sort of basic nominator of performance for a delta-wing fighter/interceptor in the "homing missile era".

Escrito originalmente por george47mathew:

There is only Mig 29 that can carry the R77 missiles. But its only AFM model. Perhaps the updated version of Sukhoi 27 and 33 can carry R77. Much like how an early 90s F-15C here carries the latest 1996 AIM120C.

No new Su-27 variant is planned for DCS, and I've not heard of a Su-33 being able to field the R-77.

What I meant with the F-5 was, it mostly saw Combat service in Vietnam era and it was its first. Yes, it was widely exported. I mostly saw Cold war planes in terms of F-104 and aircrafts of such era like F-102,F-100 and the F-11F. Cold war was most prominent before Vietnam era....

Vietnam was mostly into close engagements and it was just the emergence of successfull AA missiles...still homing missiles were only maturing. I mean, most fights were close combat and early F-4 Phantoms were forced to carry gun pods and late F-4s like E model got its own internal gun, experience in Nam. Also the reason of Topgun initiation for close combat tactics.

Before Vietnam, most USAF jets omitted the internal gun and focused on missiles. Missiles before Vietnam was largely unreliable. They were only good effect on straight flying planes. Missiles matured only after the late 70s.


I wonder which model of Su 27 is in DCS?

The current Su 33 in the Russian Navy are undergoing upgrades to keep up with the times and they will most certainly upgrade it to carry active radar missiles. SARH missiles are useless in todays times. An American F-15 fitted with AMRAAMs can take out any Sukhoi or Migs only armed with SARH missiles, It won't matter if the said Sukhoi or Mig got thrust vectors. SARH missiles are obsolete.

[Sandy]

Escrito originalmente por george47mathew:

What I meant with the F-5 was, it mostly saw Combat service in Vietnam era and it was its first. Yes, it was widely exported. I mostly saw Cold war planes in terms of F-104 and aircrafts of such era like F-102,F-100 and the F-11F. Cold war was most prominent before Vietnam era....

You cannot seriously assert that the "cold war" should only refer to the time when the nuclear scare was at its highest and that only planes which served in the 1950s - early 60s should be considered "cold war aircraft", as if nothing big and notable happened after that, namely the Space Race, the very proxy war you keep mentioning, Afghanistan etc.

You are also completing shoving under the rug all the smaller nations' aircraft which were designed based on cold war geopolitics, Viggen being a good example from the DCS collection.

Escrito originalmente por george47mathew:

Vietnam was mostly into close engagements and it was just the emergence of successfull AA missiles...still homing missiles were only maturing. I mean, most fights were close combat and early F-4 Phantoms were forced to carry gun pods and late F-4s like E model got its own internal gun, experience in Nam. Also the reason of Topgun initiation for close combat tactics.

Before Vietnam, most USAF jets omitted the internal gun and focused on missiles. Missiles before Vietnam was largely unreliable. They were only good effect on straight flying planes. Missiles matured only after the late 70s.

I'm not sure if you meant this as some sort of a counter-argument, you're just confirming what I said.

The original F-4s lacked internal guns because the US air doctrine had still been very much focused on nuclear war, the primary purpose of an interceptor was to shoot down bombers and you needed missiles for that, they didn't bother fitting machineguns/autocannons into the designs. Similarly this was also the only role the MiG-21 was really good at - getting in the air, gaining altitude and speed quickly, using its missiles to shoot down bombers and RTB before its fuel runs out.

For the US, the major fault in Vietnam wasn't the aircraft design and doctrine directly but the fact that they had largely neglected any sort of close combat training for their pilots which is why they fell victim to NVA guerilla tactics.

Going back to my original statement, yes, the MiG-21 was very much a plane of the missile era.

Escrito originalmente por george47mathew:

I wonder which model of Su 27 is in DCS?

The current Su 33 in the Russian Navy are undergoing upgrades to keep up with the times and they will most certainly upgrade it to carry active radar missiles. SARH missiles are useless in todays times. An American F-15 fitted with AMRAAMs can take out any Sukhoi or Migs only armed with SARH missiles, It won't matter if the said Sukhoi or Mig got thrust vectors. SARH missiles are obsolete.

Afaik the FC3 Su-27 is specifically Su-27S, one of the early variants.

For the reason I mentioned in an earlier post, I wouldn't expect any modern(ish) Russian military jet to appear in DCS, best to put your money on the older aircraft if you want a more even playing field between east and west.

[george47mathew]

@ Sandy

I was trying to keeping it brief, which is why I did not mention Cold war planes from other countries like Draken, Super Mystere and EE lightning. Yes I had mistaken Cold war era. I thought since start of Vietnam war Cold war lost its drive....forgot it was till fall of Soviet Union....my bad.


The Mig 21 maybe from missile era but it also had gun armament. Missiles were very unreliable during Vietnam and more so in early cold war. The US planes that did have internal gun during early Nam era was just Attack jets like A4 and F105. Yeah, they did underestimate Vietnam air force...still it was admirable of Vietnam going against a superior air force.


I wish DCS would implement (In Future) dynamic campaigns of Early cold war era.....an adjusted fictional cold war era. The field would be even.

There are more prospects for cold war era jets, so many...
-------------------------------------------------

So on topic...

The poster says he got ADHD and get bored easily. Perhaps he should try the less work Mirage 2000 and the FC3 module ( you get like many planes in one package).

F-5E is neutral...but much easier to fly and agile than the Mig 21. Mig 21 is a bit tough to fly and .....land.

[Sandy]

Escrito originalmente por george47mathew:

Missiles were very unreliable during Vietnam and more so in early cold war.

Missiles were unreliable, but these two aircraft among many others were still designed for missile warfare, with US neglecting close combat as a whole until they got their asses handed to them in Vietnam.

Edit:

Escrito originalmente por george47mathew:

I wish DCS would implement (In Future) dynamic campaigns of Early cold war era.....an adjusted fictional cold war era. The field would be even.

Cold war era Europe would make an excellent setting.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AirLand_Battle

[Big Poppa Shmee]

I think, once i get the hang of the aircraft, I'm going to set up a huge bomber squadron to intercept. I won't be buying it for awhile. Unless you guys think I can fly it "well enough", passably with just keyboard and mouse. That's how I've always flown. Also always wondered what P51's and B17's would do if faced with a truly "modern" jet. Compared to the 262, the Mig 21 is space age lol :D That sounds like fun. Shooting down B52's also sounds like a blast, but as some of you mentioned, the flight models for a lot of the unflyable aircraft are overly simplified, so the F4 which normally can't outturn a Mig 21, actually will.

Mig 21 it is for me. However, the F5E is kinda its closest rival in terms of performance. Does the Ai F5E have a simplified flight model as well, will I need to actually buy the F5E for it to perform like the plane you can buy? Or is that hardcoded into the Ai already?

[george47mathew]

Escrito originalmente por SecretlyaFish:

I think, once i get the hang of the aircraft, I'm going to set up a huge bomber squadron to intercept. I won't be buying it for awhile. Unless you guys think I can fly it "well enough", passably with just keyboard and mouse. That's how I've always flown. Also always wondered what P51's and B17's would do if faced with a truly "modern" jet. Compared to the 262, the Mig 21 is space age lol :D That sounds like fun. Shooting down B52's also sounds like a blast, but as some of you mentioned, the flight models for a lot of the unflyable aircraft are overly simplified, so the F4 which normally can't outturn a Mig 21, actually will.

Mig 21 it is for me. However, the F5E is kinda its closest rival in terms of performance. Does the Ai F5E have a simplified flight model as well, will I need to actually buy the F5E for it to perform like the plane you can buy? Or is that hardcoded into the Ai already?

You mean you dont have a joystick??!!

I found it almost impossible with Keyboard. Even though the early sim games I played was with mouse and keyboard. DCS is a bit hard on keyboard. You wont survive Mig 21 with keyboard.

A non HOTAS Joystick can suffice too. I mean I dont have a HOTAS Joy either nor a trackIR. Although its recommended to have HOTAS Joystick and Track IR is a must if you buy complex modules like A-10C

If you do get a Joystick, buy FC3 which you get like many planes for a singular module price in one pack.

All AI controlled planes follow only a simple flight model (programming can only do so much) and most modules are professional flight model ( meaning less arcadish to fly and a bit harder). So you wont find it easy to fight against F-4 (very simple flight model) with Mig 21 ( EFM model which is basically VERY close to PFM). In multiplayer its very different.

When I first got the Mig 21....I thought I was gonna toast the F4 LOL. He stuck to me like glue, forgot they don't follow complex flight model. It was one on one guns only, I was adamant I must win turn fight, finally won using flaps, took a while, almost bingo fuel by the time it was over.


The FC3 had updated its F-15 and Su 27 To PFM model which means its on par with the singular dedicated flight models. Only difference is you dont have clicky cockpits. The Mig 29 and Su 33 in FC3 are told to be under future PFM upgrades....just no clicky cockpits, but still DCS world realism quality.


The Ai controlled Mig 21 can land like a true boss with perfection, they can keep the front wheel in the air after flare and rear wheel touchdown like you see in other jet landings. While us on the Mig 21 has it hard, landing the mig 21 is very hard, its not like you do with other jets. I've tried to see veterans on youtube with perfect landings with that perfected flare and keeping the nose up a little after the rear wheel touchdown, none have managed so far.

[Big Poppa Shmee]

Escrito originalmente por george47mathew:

Escrito originalmente por SecretlyaFish:

I think, once i get the hang of the aircraft, I'm going to set up a huge bomber squadron to intercept. I won't be buying it for awhile. Unless you guys think I can fly it "well enough", passably with just keyboard and mouse. That's how I've always flown. Also always wondered what P51's and B17's would do if faced with a truly "modern" jet. Compared to the 262, the Mig 21 is space age lol :D That sounds like fun. Shooting down B52's also sounds like a blast, but as some of you mentioned, the flight models for a lot of the unflyable aircraft are overly simplified, so the F4 which normally can't outturn a Mig 21, actually will.

Mig 21 it is for me. However, the F5E is kinda its closest rival in terms of performance. Does the Ai F5E have a simplified flight model as well, will I need to actually buy the F5E for it to perform like the plane you can buy? Or is that hardcoded into the Ai already?

You mean you dont have a joystick??!!

I found it almost impossible with Keyboard. Even though the early sim games I played was with mouse and keyboard. DCS is a bit hard on keyboard. You wont survive Mig 21 with keyboard.

A non HOTAS Joystick can suffice too. I mean I dont have a HOTAS Joy either nor a trackIR. Although its recommended to have HOTAS Joystick and Track IR is a must if you buy complex modules like A-10C

If you do get a Joystick, buy FC3 which you get like many planes for a singular module price in one pack.

All AI controlled planes follow only a simple flight model (programming can only do so much) and most modules are professional flight model ( meaning less arcadish to fly and a bit harder). So you wont find it easy to fight against F-4 (very simple flight model) with Mig 21 ( EFM model which is basically VERY close to PFM). In multiplayer its very different.

When I first got the Mig 21....I thought I was gonna toast the F4 LOL. He stuck to me like glue, forgot they don't follow complex flight model. It was one on one guns only, I was adamant I must win turn fight, finally won using flaps, took a while, almost bingo fuel by the time it was over.


The FC3 had updated its F-15 and Su 27 To PFM model which means its on par with the singular dedicated flight models. Only difference is you dont have clicky cockpits. The Mig 29 and Su 33 in FC3 are told to be under future PFM upgrades....just no clicky cockpits, but still DCS world realism quality.


The Ai controlled Mig 21 can land like a true boss with perfection, they can keep the front wheel in the air after flare and rear wheel touchdown like you see in other jet landings. While us on the Mig 21 has it hard, landing the mig 21 is very hard, its not like you do with other jets. I've tried to see veterans on youtube with perfect landings with that perfected flare and keeping the nose up a little after the rear wheel touchdown, none have managed so far.

Nah I've never had a joystick. Never really stopped me from shooting down planes, but I usually never control the rudder myself, and obviously its a kinda hammerfisted with less finesse. Its just expensive for a good joystick.

[george47mathew]

Escrito originalmente por SecretlyaFish:

Nah I've never had a joystick. Never really stopped me from shooting down planes, but I usually never control the rudder myself, and obviously its a kinda hammerfisted with less finesse. Its just expensive for a good joystick.

I started with keyboard too and only bought the Joystick to play Janes F-15E.

I used keyboard till Strike Fighters series.

Flying Keyboard only for sims like IL2 and DCS is VERY hard. Its almost impossible to fly the Mig21...which is actually a hard aircraft to fly in DCS. Even the vets here have a hard time landing the plane.....let alone in crosswinds.

I highly recommend a Joystick. I mean I use a Joystick that costs around 60 dollars. Its not elite like Warthog.


But then again...you could try and refund it.