What module to start with?

[Big Poppa Shmee]

So, I won't be able to purchase this for awhile but I've been thinking about what plane module I'd want to buy. I've been leaning towards the Mig 21. From what I've read, for its time, its a good dogfighter, its a good bomber/ground attacker, and it can shoot some AA missiles and stuff too so its not completely left in the dust against other newer 3rd and 4th gen aircraft.

I've got ADHD so I get bored very easily, so that's why the multirole aspect of the Mig 21 appealed to me. Also, I've always had a thing for the Russian jets, and unlike a lot of the other ones, which seem to be duds sorta (Mig 27/Mig 29), the Mig 21 was actually a badass plane, and compared well and even in some cases was flat out better than the competition it faced. Pretty impressive that some vietnamese pilots with 1/10th the flight time could still shoot down F5's and F4 phantoms, and F105's.

Its honestly a pretty legendary plane, it proved its worth. Also compared to the flight manual in the A10, its a lot shorter, and since I've never dealt with a sim on this level, I think being able to learn the actual controls faster will be better for me. But, I'm still open to other planes as well.

The mirage 2000, I remember that plane from wings over israel. Looks awesome, and can actually beat a Su 27 in a dogfight in the opening manuvers before it bleeds all its energy away. I don't know anything about the Saab 37 Viggen, but its a sexy enough looking aircraft. As I understand it the version in game is more of an attacker, and can't do BVR combat at all? Then there is another obviously choice, the F5E. I suspect that, once I eventually make my choice, if I go with the Mig, I'll eventually buy this one as well.

Besides those 4, the rest don't really interest me. They are too slow. If you can't do mach 2, I'm not really interested in flying it. Shame too because I hear they are actively working on the F18, but that can't do mach 2. I heard Russian jets are still really secretive, so there probably won't be a modern Su 27 hardcore sim.

Anyways, what are your thoughts. Is the F5E the equalizer kinda for the Mig 21, where its just a better plane overall basically? I know the mirage will beat both in a dogfight and BVR, and I know nothing about the Viggen.

[RoadHouse]

You didn't mention which modules you already. Honestly all the aircraft you are interested in are study sims and require a lot of work to learn.


My recommendation would be to start with Flaming Cliffs 3 if you do not already have it.

https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/products/planes/flaming_cliffs/

It gives you multiple aircraft that are easier to get flying with from the get go.

Also many players really get into the online combat arena using these aircraft.

[Big Poppa Shmee]

Originally posted by $lap_Chop:

You didn't mention which modules you already. Honestly all the aircraft you are interested in are study sims and require a lot of work to learn.


My recommendation would be to start with Flaming Cliffs 3 if you do not already have it.

https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/products/planes/flaming_cliffs/

It gives you multiple aircraft that are easier to get flying with from the get go.

Also many players really get into the online combat arena using these aircraft.

I have none, and I'm aware they are study sims, which is why I made a post about them, and listed the 4 that I'd be most likely to get. I have played flaming cliffs 2 before, its honestly pretty easy to play. FC3 probably isn't much different.

[Sandy]

Originally posted by SecretlyaFish:

I have played flaming cliffs 2 before, its honestly pretty easy to play. FC3 probably isn't much different.

FC3 is pretty much just a port of the LockOn aicraft to DCS. They've added professional flight model to F-15, A-10A and Su-27 (MiG-29 & Su-33 are WIP) but systems-wise the level of simulation is the same.

The Mirage is probably the easiest full-fidelity module as it's fly-by-wire, the weapons are rather simple to deploy and you get a capable radar & RWR. The only real disadvantage compared to the FC3 fighters is that you can only carry 2x Super 530D + 2x MAGIC II against those "missile boats" and they probably aren't the best missiles around.

The MiG-21bis is from the analog era, lots of switches and buttons to smash, a terrible radar and an even more terrible RWR system. There's no HUD and you'll get to rely on radio navigation and ground control. As a newbie it felt like a rocket with wings attached to the sides and took more practice to land safely than any other module. But personally all of these things mean it's been perhaps the best DCS experience so far. There's a nice assortment of air-to-air missiles, bombs, rockets, even the Kh-66 Grom (and tactical nukes for the novelty).

The F-5E is a great module I've flown far too little. The greatest downside is that you only get two sidewinders and that's it, it's a bit slower than the MiG-21 but makes it up with agility and a lot better avionics (minus IFF interrogation). Other people here will probably obsess over it the same way I obsess about the -21.

Viggen is indeed the striker variant of the aircraft so it focuses on anti-ship/ground attack. It can field sidewinders but it sports a ground radar and its air-to-air mode isn't much on par with proper fighters.

[george47mathew]

Mirage is easier to fly and the only difficult part is the INS complications.


Mig 21 is a bit hard overall...its hard to fly. This is an old school jet fighter.

F-5 is in between Mig 21 and Mirage.

The hardest is A-10C....the most highly detailed, but super tough. Flying is easy ( its slow). But when you get to the combat part...you have to go through several switches to make the weapons function...by the time you're finished, you'd be shoot down.

[JDarksword]

I recommend the Mirage or MiG. The 21 is a great simulation of you want a challenging aircraft to fly and employ. The Mirage if you want the nicest flying jet in DCS and full fidelity modern multi role, though it does have a rather limited amount of missiles.

[Big Poppa Shmee]

Originally posted by {WD} JDarksword:

I recommend the Mirage or MiG. The 21 is a great simulation of you want a challenging aircraft to fly and employ. The Mirage if you want the nicest flying jet in DCS and full fidelity modern multi role, though it does have a rather limited amount of missiles.

What ground attack weapons can the Mirage employ? Honestly, against the missile boats I don't think the Mirage would do well but against anything similarily armed, its a good plane. Very fast and agile. I'm leaning more towards the Mig 21 at the moment but I'll see. Are they any mods for these planes? Like, adding more/new weapons etc to the planes? Also, not sure how long the flight manual on the mirage is, but considering the Mig 21 manual is less than half that of the A10C, besides the aircraft itself being more difficult to fly, I feel like I'll be able to start enjoying the Mig 21 the soonest.

[Sandy]

Originally posted by SecretlyaFish:

What ground attack weapons can the Mirage employ?

Nothing fancy. Mk82+snakeyes, GBU-12 / GBU-24 (there's no targeting pod for the plane so it needs another unit to lase), BLG-66, rocket pods.

Unlike the MiG-21 though, you have a full-fledged HUD with CCIP/CCRP so hitting your targets isn't the same kind of challenge.

Are they any mods for these planes? Like, adding more/new weapons etc to the planes?

Random weapon mods may be around but generally the official modules include all the weapon systems that were fielded by the aircraft (and which are supported by the engine), and sometimes even go slightly beyond that (like the Kh-66 in MiG-21bis). Someone more familiar with DCS modding can correct me but afaik, to make guided weapons work properly you need access to the DCS SDK which is only available to licensed 3rd party developers and not the general public.

[Big Poppa Shmee]

Originally posted by Sandy:

Originally posted by SecretlyaFish:

What ground attack weapons can the Mirage employ?

Nothing fancy. Mk82+snakeyes, GBU-12 / GBU-24 (there's no targeting pod for the plane so it needs another unit to lase), BLG-66, rocket pods.

Unlike the MiG-21 though, you have a full-fledged HUD with CCIP/CCRP so hitting your targets isn't the same kind of challenge.

Are they any mods for these planes? Like, adding more/new weapons etc to the planes?

Random weapon mods may be around but generally the official modules include all the weapon systems that were fielded by the aircraft (and which are supported by the engine), and sometimes even go slightly beyond that (like the Kh-66 in MiG-21bis). Someone more familiar with DCS modding can correct me but afaik, to make guided weapons work properly you need access to the DCS SDK which is only available to licensed 3rd party developers and not the general public.

That's a huge shame. The game would flourish much more if they let anyone use that SDK. Modding is what keeps a game alive. The only real reason why people are playing this on its old crappy laggy engine is because there isn't anything better. Sucks to hear the developers don't truly support modding. Look at games like Morrowind, Oblivion, Skyrim.. You get every single tool the developers get to make the original game. Are the devs scared that someone or a group of dedicated people might start making mods that are as good as better than their official content, and on top of that, free? Honestly that lowers my opinion of these devs quite a bit just from that. /rantover

I donno, the mirage is really sexy... Kinda goofy needing another unit to lase, how ineffecient. To me then it doesn't really sound like a true multirole aircraft, at least in the version we have in game. 3rd gen mig can lase its own target but newer mirage can't.. I donno, besides its looks it appeals to me even less now. Can only carry 2 AA missiles and drops only dumb bombs and rockets. I know its an incredible plane but that cemented it. Mig 21 for me it is, once I have some spare moneh. I'll miss the HUD though.

Might be a little longer though... You'll laugh at me probably but I've played all the flight sims I've ever played with mouse and keyboard only. Managed pretty well too. But I think for this, I'll probably actually need a joystick? I've never liked the stick though honestly. Feels archaic and inefficient. Do you have a good suggestion for a stick and throttle setup that would be best for the Mig 21?

[JDarksword]

The engine isn't old, crappy, and laggy. It was just updated last year and is continuing to be upgradeed with modern features, it certainly looks beautiful so I don't see how it's "crappy", and it isn't at all laggy, and I don't even have close to a top of the line system. The MiG doesn't have a laser, IDK where you got that from but it can't laze its own targets, I don't even thing it can carry guided bombs if I remember correctly. The only guided A2G weapon on the MiG is the Grom if I am remembering right, and t is guided through a beam riding system.

[Big Poppa Shmee]

Originally posted by {WD} JDarksword:

The engine isn't old, crappy, and laggy. It was just updated last year and is continuing to be upgradeed with modern features, it certainly looks beautiful so I don't see how it's "crappy", and it isn't at all laggy, and I don't even have close to a top of the line system. The MiG doesn't have a laser, IDK where you got that from but it can't laze its own targets, I don't even thing it can carry guided bombs if I remember correctly. The only guided A2G weapon on the MiG is the Grom if I am remembering right, and t is guided through a beam riding system.

Beam lase, w/e, same function, missile is guided to the target. The game looks almost the same from when I played FC2 years ago. So they made a few updates. It still isn't an ideal engine at all. And it certainly isn't new by any stretch. I'm not playing this game because its a graphical marvel or a technological masterpiece of an engine. Its old, and it doesn't matter how many times they update it, its still old. It honestly doesn't look very impressive to me, sorry.

My reference to the engine was about mods, and how this is really the only serious big time combat flight sim. There is no other competition so they hold back how much modding you can do by holding back the SDK. If a newer flight combat sim came out it would have a better engine, better graphics, and a better world. IF that combat sim also had full modding support, then DCS's only leg to stand on would be their amount of content due to being around for a longer period. Anyways, it was just my reaction and my opinion on the modding situation, I don't really want to have discussion about it, its my opinion and unless they make modding more friendly that's where it will stay.

[Sandy]

Originally posted by SecretlyaFish:

You get every single tool the developers get to make the original game.

Not true at all. Bethesda games are filled with hardcoded features and things created with middleware modders have no access to whatsoever.

Originally posted by SecretlyaFish:

Beam lase, w/e, same function, missile is guided to the target.

Beam-riding the Grom into a target is an absolutely horrendous way of guiding a missile compared to a TGP lase. the Bis variant didn't even field it in real life...

Originally posted by SecretlyaFish:

It still isn't an ideal engine at all.

Have you actually played flight sims in the past 15 years?

Originally posted by SecretlyaFish:

Its old, and it doesn't matter how many times they update it, its still old. It honestly doesn't look very impressive to me, sorry.

Tell that to the entire videogames industry that build games on engines that are derivative work from the 90s / early 2000s.

Edit: and to elaborate more:

Originally posted by SecretlyaFish:

I donno, the mirage is really sexy... Kinda goofy needing another unit to lase, how ineffecient. To me then it doesn't really sound like a true multirole aircraft, at least in the version we have in game. 3rd gen mig can lase its own target but newer mirage can't.. I donno, besides its looks it appeals to me even less now. Can only carry 2 AA missiles and drops only dumb bombs and rockets. I know its an incredible plane but that cemented it.

The Mirage can carry 4 AA missiles - two radar-guided Super 530Ds and two IR-guided MAGIC IIs. I believe the Greek loadout is also possible now (4x MAGIC II).

There's no multirole aircraft (in it's modern meaning) in DCS yet, the F/A-18C is being worked on. Most fighter jets can carry dumb bombs and rocket pods because they're very easy to implement. The MiG-21 & Mirage 2000 were both originally designed as fighters/interceptors, lightweight which is not synonymous with 12 missiles.

We've all been in the phase when we want to play with the most modern and heavily armed equipment to live out some sort of power fantasy but as soon as you start gaining interest in the history and value of military aircraft and see limitations and faults as fun and challenge will you truly start enjoying combat flight sims.

[george47mathew]

I wish there was some Russian jet in the pipeline to carry an active radar missile to even out the odds when the game changer F-18 and F-14 comes in. The current Russian jets are no match against US fighter with ARH missile. Russian jets are only good in close combat.....if you are lucky to get to such ranges trying to dodge AMRAAMs.


I only see cold war era jets for Russia in development.

[Sandy]

Originally posted by george47mathew:

I wish there was some Russian jet in the pipeline to carry an active radar missile to even out the odds when the game changer F-18 and F-14 comes in. The current Russian jets are no match against US fighter with ARH missile. Russian jets are only good in close combat.....if you are lucky to get to such ranges trying to dodge AMRAAMs.


I only see cold war era jets for Russia in development.

During the past several years, Russia has tightened security on data related to aircraft in service so it's unlikely we'll see Russian 4th generation fighters in DCS.

There is nothing game-changing about the Tomcat or Hornet though as long as FC3 stays as an integral part of multiplayer, the F-15 is quite a beast. The tools to even it out are there, i.e. limiting weapons to an 80s setting would exclude the AIM-120, but unfortunately the majority of people always seem to gravitate towards the most modern equipment available. Personally I've been waiting for more 3rd gen jets to make a cold war setting more popular online, MiG-21 versus F-5 didn't evolve much from very simplistic airquake.

[george47mathew]

Originally posted by Sandy:

Originally posted by george47mathew:

I wish there was some Russian jet in the pipeline to carry an active radar missile to even out the odds when the game changer F-18 and F-14 comes in. The current Russian jets are no match against US fighter with ARH missile. Russian jets are only good in close combat.....if you are lucky to get to such ranges trying to dodge AMRAAMs.


I only see cold war era jets for Russia in development.

During the past several years, Russia has tightened security on data related to aircraft in service so it's unlikely we'll see Russian 4th generation fighters in DCS.

There is nothing game-changing about the Tomcat or Hornet though as long as FC3 stays as an integral part of multiplayer, the F-15 is quite a beast. The tools to even it out are there, i.e. limiting weapons to an 80s setting would exclude the AIM-120, but unfortunately the majority of people always seem to gravitate towards the most modern equipment available. Personally I've been waiting for more 3rd gen jets to make a cold war setting more popular online, MiG-21 versus F-5 didn't evolve much from very simplistic airquake.

The F 5 is not exactly a cold war plane. It can take on the mig 21 anyday. I found it easier than the Mig 21.

The Mig 21 can't even win a turn fight against an AI F-4 phantom... unless you use flaps.

If we mess the tight turn, it wobbles and goes into a forced unrecoverable stall.


There is only Mig 29 that can carry the R77 missiles. But its only AFM model. Perhaps the updated version of Sukhoi 27 and 33 can carry R77. Much like how an early 90s F-15C here carries the latest 1996 AIM120C.

[Sandy]

Originally posted by george47mathew:

The F 5 is not exactly a cold war plane.

An aircraft designed, produced and distributed throughout the cold war to various US allies in the hundreds is the very textbook example of a cold war era plane.

Originally posted by george47mathew:

The Mig 21 can't even win a turn fight against an AI F-4 phantom... unless you use flaps.

If we mess the tight turn, it wobbles and goes into a forced unrecoverable stall.

The AI planes use simplistic flight models which often underplay or exceed the limitations of the actual aircraft / player flight model by far, everything plays out entirely different in multiplayer.

It's also highly questionable of you to hold turnfighting as some sort of basic nominator of performance for a delta-wing fighter/interceptor in the "homing missile era".

Originally posted by george47mathew:

There is only Mig 29 that can carry the R77 missiles. But its only AFM model. Perhaps the updated version of Sukhoi 27 and 33 can carry R77. Much like how an early 90s F-15C here carries the latest 1996 AIM120C.

No new Su-27 variant is planned for DCS, and I've not heard of a Su-33 being able to field the R-77.