Question re: optimal leveling

[=Snappy=]

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Creating_an_Awesome_Character

why does the author say "...you will want to choose the specialization that governs the least amount of your major skills in order to achieve a higher level ..... selecting skills that do not fall under the specialization you have chosen for your class (ex. Combat skills for a Magic class, Magic skills for a Combat class, etc.) is the most advisable method, because it directly translates to faster leveling."

why would u want to pick the opposite specialization? ty.

[Lavian]

If you don't use you major skills very often, then you won;'t level very often. You don't want to level too often because you want to maximize your base stat gains (which is up to +5). Thus you take major skills that aren't things you're going to use very often, level the skills you are using often, and then spam your (somewhat useless) major skills so you can level exactly when you want so all of that stats you pick to level are +5.


Doesn't sound like a very fun way to play to me though.

[Major Havoc]

Leveling up in "Other Skills" means your character will not level up in character level at an agreeable rate. All classes have Major Skills, which should be considered when creating a character. For example: A Breton already has bonuses to Magical Skills, so having them play a Knight would totally render their Magical bonus skills ineffective.
This is why I recommend saving at the Sewer Gate before you leave the Prison Tutorial, that way you can load up that save later and change your characters Race, Birthsign and Class when you finally figure out which class you want to specialize in.
Also I would recommend joining the Guilds and finishing those quests until you reach Level Twelve. The main reason is that finishing the Main Quest before then usually means that it is too easy and you also get pretty weak Sigil stones. Guilds are a good way to get advanced training in all your skills, and higher levels also means that DLC Quests have bigger rewards and more powerful items.
One of the main complaints about Oblivion was that it is too easy, and that is true if you complete the Main and DLC Quests at a low level. So save them until you are at leats level twelve, and you will enjoy this game much better.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

The problem is with the games leveling system. You would think that your major skills are the skills you want to focus on, but unfortunately using your Major Skills also results in you gaining levels.

So if you use to many of your favored Major Skills they will make you gain levels to quickly and you will get poor stat increases which will make your character weak and make the game harder.

Because of that you will be forced to focus on many of the minor skills that you may like less. Most people create their character thinking Major Skills are going to be the skills you focus on, but in order to optimize your stats you end up leveling the skills you don't like as much more often.

So basically you want to choose skills you don't plan to level until later as your main skills and choose skills you want to be able to level freely as minor skills. Usually I choose only a couple of skills I like for Major skills.

The trick is creating a custom class that allows you to do things the way that works best for you.

For example I usually create a warrior/conjurer character.

I set up my character like this.

Birthsign: Thief - Luck plays a role in everything you do so it boosts all your stats.

Specialization: Combat

Favored Attributes: Luck and Strength. Strength to help carry more items.

Major Skills

Blade or Blunt (Whichever you will use least)
Hand to Hand
Heavy Armor
Alchemy
Illusion
Mysticism
Restoration

The only skills I use in that setup starting out are Heavy Armor and Restoration.

With this set up I focus on Heavy Armor to gain levels, 10 per level up. That allows you to get to 100 by level 8 if you choose to, which makes your armor weightless. Heavy Armor 75 is pretty good too. 50% less weight is still useful if you decide to use other skills.

Weightless armor is nice to have early on so you get the best protection from heavy armor and more space for treasure and other stuff.

However I prefer to spend 3 levels getting Restoration from 25 to 50 so you can make better custom healing spells that make everything much easier. You can also make custom spells that boost Mercantile and Personality to 100 to sell higher and buy cheaper, Armorer boost to 100 so you enable the unbreakable hammer perk when fixing your gear. etc.

You can even use a high Restoration skill to bypass Alteration skill to make a spell with Strength +20 and max Feather for 120 seconds to help carry more items or make a healing spell with shield effect.

My levels look like this.

Heavy Armor 10
Sword 10
Conjuration 10

These are the 3 skills I get to 100 as quicky as possible.

This gives +5 stat boosts per level for END, STR, and INT, which increases your health, maximum encumbrance, and maximum MP.

My Custom Class setup also allows you to focus on other skills that are useful in place of Sword or Conjuration in any given level.

Marksman 10 if you like archery for long range sneak attacks.
Destruction 10 for Mages that like to blow stuff up.
Sneak 10 for stealthy characters.

The rest of the minor skills can be used however or whenever you like without worrying about them leveling you up.

The rest of your Major Skills are skills that are easy to level up.

Alchemy is easy to level, just take food items from Chapels and Guilds and you can spam potions to skill up in no time.

Mysticism and Illusion can be spammed if you create custom spells at a spellmaking alter with minimal MP use.

Blunt and H2H are a little bit more difficult to level as they get higher, but at that point you can afford to pay a trainer to level it up for you or you will be strong enough to beat everything up without much issue. Especially when you get reflect damage 100%.

** EDIT ** I re-read your post and I interpreted it incorrectly.

The answer to your question is that when you choose a specialization you get a +5 bonus to the skills under the specialization. If those skills are Major Skills then those skills will start out with +5 to each which will reduce the maximum level you can attain since you don't raise those skills yourself.

If you use my Custom Class as an example, since I use a combat specialization with Heavy Armor, Blunt, and H2H as primary skills, they each receive a +5 bonus which effectively reduces the maximum level I can attain by one and a half levels. If I had chosen Stealth as my Specialization than I would not have got any bonuses for Major Skills which would have allowed me to gain one and half more levels since none of my Major Skills involve a Stealth specialization.

[=Snappy=]

thanks, everyone, for the responses. i am starting to understand it better. i'm sure things will become 100% clear as i progress thru the game and try to put this technique (optimal leveling) into practice, but i am just trying to learn as much as i can, beforehand, as i don't to have to do a bunch of abortive playthrus to figure it out. life's too short, too many games to play, etc. ;)

------
re Dexter's response to the original question:

"The answer to your question is that when you choose a specialization you get a +5 bonus to the skills under the specialization. If those skills are Major Skills then those skills will start out with +5 to each which will reduce the maximum level you can attain since you don't raise those skills yourself.

If you use my Custom Class as an example, since I use a combat specialization with Heavy Armor, Blunt, and H2H as primary skills, they each receive a +5 bonus which effectively reduces the maximum level I can attain by one and a half levels. If I had chosen Stealth as my Specialization than I would not have got any bonuses for Major Skills which would have allowed me to gain one and half more levels since none of my Major Skills involve a Stealth specialization."

OK, plz bear with me: I assume that having those extra 1.5 character levels is more of a bonus than having early access to the extra 15 skill points?

ty.

--------------
FWIW my char:

redguard; spec: magic; birthsign: warrior; attributes: endurance, luck

majors: acrobatics, alchemy, athletics, blade, heavy armor, mercantile, restoration

my goals are to (hopefully) melee my way thru the game, to be wealthy and loner/nomadic. i don't need to build "The Most Optimal" character possible, but A) I definitely want to have all 100s (my understanding is: this should not be difficult), and B) once I have crushed the game, I don't want to feel like "hey i crushed it pretty good but if I had done x,y,z, I could have crushed it 10-20% more!" I want to have like ..... ~98% realization of my crush-the-game potential! ;) I am most likely not going to play thru the game again and I want to depart it with a nice sense of veni, vidi, vici; no unfinished business.

i think this build is close -- to being able to do all this, and still follow the "optimal" pattern -- but i guess i should not have chosen blade as a major (as I do intend to use blade as my primary). in general I picked my majors based on stuff I *did* want to use vs. *did not* want to use and it seems now like this is a mistake. ... but a couple of them -- acrobatics, mercantile -- i just picked because i didn't have any better idea.

i'll leave it here for now. ty again for the replies and any further input appreciated.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

I think Athletics is a bad idea as a Major Skill because you are going to be running around alot and it will become a problem when it makes you gain levels when you don't want it to. IMO Athletics is best served as a Minor Skill so you can run around all you want without issues and you never have to intentially level it up.

Mercantile might also be a bad idea but it is something you can probably adapt to. I suppose there are some advantages to having it as a main skill because it seems harder to level up compared to other things.

[=Snappy=]

Originally posted by Dexter:

I think Athletics is a bad idea as a Major Skill because you are going to be running around alot and it will become a problem when it makes you gain levels when you don't want it to. IMO Athletics is best served as a Minor Skill so you can run around all you want without issues and you never have to intentially level it up.

Mercantile might also be a bad idea but it is something you can probably adapt to. I suppose there are some advantages to having it as a main skill because it seems harder to level up compared to other things.

thanks i don't remember why i picked that. i think cuz i wanted the best run speed asap. my intent was to mainly use a horse. or to level it first and fast, whichever is easiest.

----------

so in your sample build, u chose the majors that would give u the quickest/most controlled leveling up?

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

My sample build is not perfect. I am always trying to improve it. Although it did seem to work well I have already restarted with another attempt at perfection. I was level 21. >.>

I am not sure there is a perfect build I just know that some skills are not a good idea because I have tried them as major skills and had issues.

I have made a few changes and my new build has allowed me to level up extremely quickly so far and looks like it could be the most optimal build so far for me.

My build and style is not for everyone and not for people new to the game as it requires more patience and may not be as fun initially. I have played through the game many times already and have alot of knowledge about the game.

I have used the optimal leveling advice you mentioned to get the class right so as not to lose levels by raising major skills by choosing the wrong specialization.

My Custom Class looks like this so far.

Race: Redguard

Birth Sign: Thief

Specialization: Stealth

Favored Attributes: Luck and Endurance

Major Skills

Hand to Hand
Light or Heavy Armor
Alchemy
Illusion
Mysticism
Restoration
Alteration or Marksman

Minor Skills

Armorer
Athletics
Blade
Block
Blunt
Alteration or Marksman
Conjuration
Destruction
Acrobatics
Light or Heavy Armor
Mercantile
Security
Sneak
Speechcraft

I rush through the sewer tunnels quickly and try not to gain levels on anything. I selectively aquire items from unlocked chests only as most of the locked chests are junk anyways.

As soon as I exit the tunnels I fast travel to the Imperial City market place and dump all of my items, armor, weapons etc. into the 6 torn grain sacks, 3 on each side. these torn grain sacks act as your storage area as torn grain sacks do not reset so your items are safely stored there.

I then Fast travel to Bravil, go to the Chapel and buy Minor Respite from the NPC, then go join the Mages Guild and start the recommendation quest up until the Imperial City part. I do not complete it at this time. Then I take all the Alchemy Apparatuses, Mortar and Peste, Calcinators, etc. Grab all four kinds.

Then go to Harcane grove up the road from Bravil to grab the Unicorn to use as your Horse. The Unicorn is very dangerous to use though, but it can be a great weapon for skilled players. Just remember always quicksave before you dismount the Unicorn and never draw your weapon out or it will attack you.

If you decide to use it make sure it doesn't kill any NPC's, but guards are ok. The Unicorn will walk back as soon as you dismount it so try to zone quickly. If it disappears fast travel to a nearby area or the same area and it should reappear.

Fast travel to Leyawiin, make sure you use the horse for fast travel as less time passes. Take all their Apparatuses and start the Recommendation quest. The Leyawiin Fighters Guild has almost a complete set of Steel Armor if you have the room for it to take to Cheydinhal otherwise you can come back for it later if you want it.

Fast travel to Cheydinhal and complete the Mages Guild Recommendation quest there because it is very easy. Take all their Apparatuses and Join the fighters Guild. Accept the first Contract because you will receive 3 quest weapons that are weightless that you can use as your weapons until you complete the quest. Don't complete the quest until later.

Then Fast Travel to Chorrol and start the Mages Guild recommendation quest there. Take all their Apparatuses. You may now become over encumbered, but you are going to sell all the apparatuses you got so far. Once you sell all of them you should have 2-3k Gold.

Buy all the Bound Armor spells from the NPC. I usually use the bound armor glitch to create permanent bound items to use for skilling up heavy and light armor because they are more durable.

Fast Travel to Skingrad to start the recommendation quest there and to get the weak fireball spell.

Fast travel to Anvil and do the same there. Go to the Fighters Guild and accept a contract and go get the Steel Armor Pieces up in the offices then complete the contract as far as you can go. You can't complete the contract until night so if the time isn't right just come back later, you don't have to do it now.

Lastly make sure and grab Fin Gleam from the Ocean floor to the West which is located near the Blackened out Island on the map.

From here you can do what you want.

I use the Unicorn to kill one Guard from each City to get their Light Armor and Weapons, and especially their Castle keys, but not all will have keys. Then I find Soldiers on the road for their Heavy Armor. I usually get 2-3 sets to use for skilling up purposes. The Unicorn is very tough and allows you to kill guards without murdering them or receiving any bounty.

In order to gain levels quickly as I like getting to level 5 asap since bosses start carrying good loot, my levels went like this.

Heavy Armor 10
Light Armor 10
Conjuration 10

Light and Heavy armor are very easy to train you can gain levels pretty quick this way while raising your Max Health, Endurance, Speed and max MP.

If you just want to be able to start fighting so it is not so boring leveling, just do blade instead of the armor you chose as your minor skill or Conjuration. Conjuration is very useful however. Being able to summon a helper makes things much easier.

Conjuration takes awhile at first because of your limited MP but it is worth it. You can find Ayleid Wells all over that boost and refill your max MP. Having a summoned creature to fight along with you is so great. I usually get it to 100 asap because you get access to stronger summons and the casting cost is reduced. 100 by level 11 is boss as your summoned creatures can destroy any enemy.

Use rats in Fatback Cave to train Armor. Save your game before you zone in so you can reload it until there are 2 rats near the zone. I use this method to get to level 5 as quickly as possible because level 5 is the level you get Namira's Ring from the Daedric Quest.

Level 5 is the level when Ringleaders start carrying good enchanted armor to either sell or use so you can buy other items and a House quickly.

You can find Ringleaders in these locations.

Doznot Cave
Sercen
Fort Homestead
Fort Alessia
Fort Cedrian
Fort Woodenhand
Infested Mine
Rockmilk Cave

I usually sell most of the loot so I can buy the Gauntlets of Gluttony from Bruma. Strength 15 is nice and they are pretty durable.

I hope this wasn't to boring. >.>

[=Snappy=]

thanks for the detailed write-up actually! I am actually using a very similar build now that i understand about why you pick the major vs. minor skills that you do, to control your leveling. i am using your skill choices with my original choice of sign (lord) and specialty (magic). and of course END and LUCK as chosen attributes.

as for your extended start-up walkthru: i appreciate it, but most of it beyond the imperial city marketplace is beyond me, as i have not played the game that much. i understand what you are doing but not why you are doing it, exactly. i guess to make money and get free alchemy gear? and then what?

i am leveling str and endurance first but i'm not sure what to do next. will read around a bit but i guess i will be lvling int after that so i can get the remaining max total magicka. does that sound right? but i would also like to start leveling athletics, acrobatics, mercantile, security ASAP so i can get on with playing the game for real...

still the lvling is kinda a pain. i thought the whole idea was that you could use minor skills at-will, but it seems that is really not the case because you have to stick to just lvling the attributes you want to. so i am just [del]running[/del] walking around lvling heavy armor and HTH, not able to cast spells, do anything mercantile, alchemy, armorer, MM, etc. is this right? =|

thanks again for reading/writing. any input appreciated.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Hey another thing I realized about the effecient leveling is that your Race also affects your maximum level because racial bonuses are applied to your Major Skills and those bonuses prevent gaining levels.

I started over again because of that lol.

From what I can tell Nord is the easiest race to create a Warrior type character without wasting levels you can gain. You can do it with Redguard too, but it is more complicated and I haven't figured out what works best.

Originally posted by =Snappy=:

as for your extended start-up walkthru: i appreciate it, but most of it beyond the imperial city marketplace is beyond me, as i have not played the game that much. i understand what you are doing but not why you are doing it, exactly. i guess to make money and get free alchemy gear? and then what?

The reason why I do all that is to gain access to the Acane University so that I can make custom spells so that gaining levels is easier when using magic. You can create spells that cost 1-3 magicka per cast to spam so you can gain levels when raising magic skills.

Restoration is slow to level and is one of my favored skills. Not just for healing, but for the versatility of the skill. Being able to spam it makes leveling it much easier. Things like capping mercantile and armorer by boosting those stats magically using custom spells. That way you don't have to actually level mercantile or armorer right away which allows you to focus on other things first.

I collect the Alchemy items to sell for quick cash, but do it that way to limit how many sales I do as to not level up Mercantile yet. Selling items all at once count as selling one item towards leveling mercantile. If you do it right you can easily make 3-5k for expenses and buying certain items early. Namely the Gauntlets of Gluttony which have have 15 strength.

15 strength is huge as a low level character and the durability of the gauntlets is far greater then any other item you normally come across in the early levels. You can also use that gold to buy your first house if you choose.

Originally posted by =Snappy=:

i am leveling str and endurance first but i'm not sure what to do next. will read around a bit but i guess i will be lvling int after that so i can get the remaining max total magicka. does that sound right? but i would also like to start leveling athletics, acrobatics, mercantile, security ASAP so i can get on with playing the game for real...

Focus on Conjuration for INT if you can. High level summons are a great help.

If you have athletics as a minor skill, you never really have to intentionally level it up. It will level by itself just running around. You should use light armor to max your speed attribute. Same can be said about Acrobatics if it is a minor skill, Light armor should almost max your speed attribute by itself so you should be able to jump as often as you like as long as it is a minor skill.

Mercantile almost never needs to be intentionally increased unless you plan to use some of the skill gained to raise Personality. With the Arcane University you can create a custom spell with level 25 Restoration that fortifies Mercantile to 100 for 2 seconds and also fortifies Personality to 100 for 2 seconds with the same spell. That caps you on Mercantile and allows you to buy and sell for max amount possible.

Originally posted by =Snappy=:

still the lvling is kinda a pain. i thought the whole idea was that you could use minor skills at-will, but it seems that is really not the case because you have to stick to just lvling the attributes you want to. so i am just [del]running[/del] walking around lvling heavy armor and HTH, not able to cast spells, do anything mercantile, alchemy, armorer, MM, etc. is this right? =|

You shouldn't have to level H2H until last if you are using my setup or one similiar. Perhaps you should post your new set up.

The thing is that if you level the right skill you should be able to almost cap the stat it is associated with which means that the minor skills that use that stat can be used as often as you like with them causing a problem. I think your issue is with the fact that using them at will is wasting them somehow, but you have alot of room to waste using skills for reasons other than skilling up.

For instance, leveling heavy armor to 100 will almost cap your endurance stat by itself. That means that you can level shield and armorer at will without it causing much issue as long as they are minor skills. You could probably get those skills to level 75 at level 1 and not have it be a problem as long as you know your endurance is going to be capped.

I'm not suggesting you do that, but I am saying that you could if you wanted to. 3 skills for 1 attribute leaves plenty of room to cap the attribute associated with them and leaves alot of room to waste by using your minor skills at will.

Give me a rundown on your skills and what level they are all at.

[=Snappy=]

Originally posted by Dexter:

Hey another thing I realized about the effecient leveling is that your Race also affects your maximum level because racial bonuses are applied to your Major Skills and those bonuses prevent gaining levels.

I started over again because of that lol.

From what I can tell Nord is the easiest race to create a Warrior type character without wasting levels you can gain. You can do it with Redguard too, but it is more complicated and I haven't figured out what works best.

interesting.. not sure i'll start over but good to know ;)


[big snip]
ok! btw yes i hear u about the str gloves. i packrat everything i find. i got lucky and found these cool lightfoot boots already but i guess those gloves would blow them away!

Originally posted by Dexter:

You shouldn't have to level H2H until last if you are using my setup or one similiar. Perhaps you should post your new set up.

The thing is that if you level the right skill you should be able to almost cap the stat it is associated with which means that the minor skills that use that stat can be used as often as you like with them causing a problem. I think your issue is with the fact that using them at will is wasting them somehow, but you have alot of room to waste using skills for reasons other than skilling up.

For instance, leveling heavy armor to 100 will almost cap your endurance stat by itself. That means that you can level shield and armorer at will without it causing much issue as long as they are minor skills. You could probably get those skills to level 75 at level 1 and not have it be a problem as long as you know your endurance is going to be capped.

I'm not suggesting you do that, but I am saying that you could if you wanted to. 3 skills for 1 attribute leaves plenty of room to cap the attribute associated with them and leaves alot of room to waste by using your minor skills at will.

Give me a rundown on your skills and what level they are all at.

I think u are probably right about the wasting thing. I was under the impression u wanted to keep your skill use "pure", only skilling up to affect the 2 attributes u are trying to level (in addition to Luck). A while ago I read http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Efficient_Leveling#Avoiding_Over-Leveling, and he/she says right @ the top of the page "Try not to raise skills by more than is required (aka overlevel)" and i figured I would rather play this safe now rather than find out at level 50 or whatever that i screwed it up :), "wasted" potential etc.

For the rundown: i have the skill choices you listed above, tho i swapped restoration for marksman. I am lvl 3 going on 4, and I have only been leveling heavy armor and H2H like I said. So i have H2H=50 and HA=37, and have barely used another skill -- they are all at default levels -- and was planning to do ~3 more levels this way -- i have just been grinding it out killing mobs, riding a horse, walking around so as not to lvl athletics, no jumping, spellcasting, lockpicking, repairing, shopping, etc. -- which seemed kind of insane, which is partly why i came here to make sure i was doing it right! :)

As for the H2H I am just having fun fighting H2H. Quick, powerful attacks, and one less thing to carry. I just knew I had to pick one major to level, and it lvls at roughly the same pace as HA, so it's worked out well i guess.

Keep in mind it's all basically just a messed-up combination of techniques mashed together from reading many various sites ... not just steam and the wiki ... trying to understand this, mixing and matching ideas with no great strategy cuz i don't rly understand it all! ;)

But now that I think about what u are saying and really start to do the #s ... that we have 21 skills to use in lvling only 8 attributes ... I realize there is a lot more surplus lvling potential than i thought, and that u would probably really have to over-level a lot to screw it up. So I guess I can start using some alternate skills. aka "Playing the game"!

Overall the efficient lvling process is starting to become almost clear. Thanks again for your input!! :)

[__-__-__]

Download a rebalancing mod, the problem isn't the leveling, it's that your enemies level with you.

[JtDarth]

Originally posted by Sesh:

Download a rebalancing mod, the problem isn't the leveling, it's that your enemies level with you.

No, thats not the problem, The problem is that with this leveling system, if you dont minimax you wind up falling behind.

If you want to have a somewhat normal build, pick one "attack" stat and one "defense" stat to focus on as majors. For a mage, for example, you will want say.... Destruction and restoration, and make the others controllable skills like acrobatics, alchemy, speechcraft etc, stuff you have to actively do. Also, remember, you dont have to level immediately after it says to. My main reccomendation would be to either get used to planning out your character, or get an alternate levelling mod. There are a number of them, and you should be able to find one that suits your fancy

[Stonechat]

Optimal leveling = moving the diffculty slider down each time you level.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Originally posted by Zhander:

Optimal leveling = moving the diffculty slider down each time you level.

Optimal leveling helps keep you and enemy NPCs more closely matched. If you don't maximize your stats each level your character will begin to become weaker than NPC's. While it isn't much of an issue, it can cause each fight to take longer when your Strength is low and your weapon skill level is subpar. It can also cause your weapon to break more often because you will have to hit enemies more times to kill them.

If optimal leveling does somehow make the game easier and simulates moving the difficulty slider down as you say, then just move the slider up to compensate if you want the game to remain a challenge.

[Sponge]

You don't really need to do 'Optimal Leveling' in oblivion. Maybe if you play at 100%. I usually just keep the slider on at around 40-60% and my majors are my favorite skills. At level 37 nothing has really been much of a challenge, save for the Lost Spire fights, Blades Faction, and some DB. Improving your gear as you level is all you really need. If gear is that hard to come by, simply go +2 above the gear spawning and go farm Rockmilk once and you'll be set for the next few levels until you ding 22.