Lore question: Mehrunes Dagon and Sheogorath (spoiler)

[Ottfried]

So I just finished the main quest from oblivion and defeated mehrunes dagon, but there are some things I don´t really understand.
First I thought every daedra I kill is sent back to oblivion because the daedra on tamriel are just projections they use to toy with mundus, but how can I trap there souls than? are there souls just projections too?

second thing is, I thought daedric lords can only be killed in there own realm in oblivion, so why is Jyggalag not dead after fighting him and why does that free him from beeing sheogorath?

And my last question is, why does everyone says mehrunes dagon will never be able to walk on tamriel again? Martin is dead, and the barriers between mundus and oblivion shouldn´t exist anymore, right? Or is he forever fusioned with the amulet in the statue he became?

[Brother Skolas]

havent played in a long time so i cant awnser number 3
jyggalag case is A curse have you read listined to the text the prince of order was cursed to be the thing he hated madness aka sheo but Sheo thought of a plan you because the other princes dindt think of the one case scene Jyggalag being defeated in his "released" state wich broke the curse setting him free from madness
Think bout it Soul trap you literly trap a Beings soul in to a Object cappable of storing it aka the soul gem wich is then used to enchant or restore a weapon or mage staff

[ed]

Originally posted by Ottfried 1 + Ottfried A:

First I thought every daedra I kill is sent back to oblivion because the daedra on tamriel are just projections they use to toy with mundus, but how can I trap there souls than? are there souls just projections too?

I don't think lesser daedra are projections. Princes maybe, under normal circumstances. But lesser daedra no - for example, in Morrowind you're "hired" by Molag Bal to go hunt down wayward daedra and banish them back to Oblivion so he can punish them. If they were just projections and the real daedra were still in Oblivion all along, Bal could have gone after them himself.

Also, lesser daedra who come to Mundus leave behind a body when killed. You can cut them up and put their hearts in a potion. That's not a projection. Summoned daedra vanish when killed because the magic that was artificially holding them here has let go.

Semi-related: banished/"killed" daedra go to the Void/Waters of Oblivion, which isn't really Oblivion in the sense that they just instantly pop back up and go back to their business. They spend a long time, possibly years, blind and bodiless and helpless in a very unpleasant place before they can grow a new body and "live" again.

Originally posted by Ottfried 1 + Ottfried A:

second thing is, I thought daedric lords can only be killed in there own realm in oblivion, so why is Jyggalag not dead after fighting him and why does that free him from beeing sheogorath?

Daedra cannot actually be killed, period, full stop. Daedra, Princes included, can be (temporarily) banished to the Void from anywhere - Mundus, their own realm, someone else's realm, it doesn't matter at all. I think you're confusing it with some other fantasy setting or someone's personal fan-theories. :)

Anyway, Kage has it right, Shivering Isles explained this. Think of Sheogorath as a parasite-god, and Jyggalag was his first host. The player character spends all of Shivering Isles using the magic of symbols and ritual to become like Sheogorath, to tell the universe over and over again "I am Sheogorath!" - and eventually, when they drive out an invader in Sheogorath's realm as the true lord of the land would do (if he could have done it sooner, he would have), the universe says "well, you've convinced me!"

Since the player character has proved to the universe that they are Sheogorath, it follows that Jyggalag can't be Sheogorath if someone else is. Poof! Jyggalag is no longer Sheogorath's host, and he goes to the Waters of Oblivion to heal from getting his butt kicked and then go off into space somewhere.

The player character is now host to the Sheogorath parasite, and because of their actions in Shivering Isles they've become a far more compatible host than the Prince of Order was. There's a very important line in Isles about how Sheogorath wants you to learn about the realm so you'll understand why it's important and needs saving. The champion has learned to love the Isles, and so it will be very different from having to deal with Jyggalag who was 100% incompatible and hated everything.

If you look at Sheogorath's dialogue in Skyrim, he seems to be referring to both Sheogorath and the Oblivion player character as "myself." (There are more arguments to be made for proof of shared memories, but this post is already long enough lol.) I believe they are both in there, though after a couple hundred years they've pretty well merged into a single being.

Originally posted by Ottfried 1 + Ottfried A:

And my last question is, why does everyone says mehrunes dagon will never be able to walk on tamriel again? Martin is dead, and the barriers between mundus and oblivion shouldn´t exist anymore, right? Or is he forever fusioned with the amulet in the statue he became?

The entire point of Oblivion's ending was putting the barriers back in place, or else the Crisis would never have, you know, ended, and Skyrim would have been a desolate wasteland inhabited by roaming daedra torturing a few sad remaining survivors. :P

The amulet of kings doesn't exist anymore, Martin smashed it in the end scene. It's gone.

The barriers are permanent now because blah blah plot device blah Akatosh blah. The world no longer needs the amulet or Septim emperors, which is a good thing since there are no Septims anymore.

[Maarten]

Originally posted by ed:

Originally posted by Ottfried 1 + Ottfried A:

First I thought every daedra I kill is sent back to oblivion because the daedra on tamriel are just projections they use to toy with mundus, but how can I trap there souls than? are there souls just projections too?

I don't think lesser daedra are projections. Princes maybe, under normal circumstances. But lesser daedra no - for example, in Morrowind you're "hired" by Molag Bal to go hunt down wayward daedra and banish them back to Oblivion so he can punish them. If they were just projections and the real daedra were still in Oblivion all along, Bal could have gone after them himself.

Also, lesser daedra who come to Mundus leave behind a body when killed. You can cut them up and put their hearts in a potion. That's not a projection. Summoned daedra vanish when killed because the magic that was artificially holding them here has let go.

Semi-related: banished/"killed" daedra go to the Void/Waters of Oblivion, which isn't really Oblivion in the sense that they just instantly pop back up and go back to their business. They spend a long time, possibly years, blind and bodiless and helpless in a very unpleasant place before they can grow a new body and "live" again.

Originally posted by Ottfried 1 + Ottfried A:

second thing is, I thought daedric lords can only be killed in there own realm in oblivion, so why is Jyggalag not dead after fighting him and why does that free him from beeing sheogorath?

Daedra cannot actually be killed, period, full stop. Daedra, Princes included, can be (temporarily) banished to the Void from anywhere - Mundus, their own realm, someone else's realm, it doesn't matter at all. I think you're confusing it with some other fantasy setting or someone's personal fan-theories. :)

Anyway, Kage has it right, Shivering Isles explained this. Think of Sheogorath as a parasite-god, and Jyggalag was his first host. The player character spends all of Shivering Isles using the magic of symbols and ritual to become like Sheogorath, to tell the universe over and over again "I am Sheogorath!" - and eventually, when they drive out an invader in Sheogorath's realm as the true lord of the land would do (if he could have done it sooner, he would have), the universe says "well, you've convinced me!"

Since the player character has proved to the universe that they are Sheogorath, it follows that Jyggalag can't be Sheogorath if someone else is. Poof! Jyggalag is no longer Sheogorath's host, and he goes to the Waters of Oblivion to heal from getting his butt kicked and then go off into space somewhere.

The player character is now host to the Sheogorath parasite, and because of their actions in Shivering Isles they've become a far more compatible host than the Prince of Order was. There's a very important line in Isles about how Sheogorath wants you to learn about the realm so you'll understand why it's important and needs saving. The champion has learned to love the Isles, and so it will be very different from having to deal with Jyggalag who was 100% incompatible and hated everything.

If you look at Sheogorath's dialogue in Skyrim, he seems to be referring to both Sheogorath and the Oblivion player character as "myself." (There are more arguments to be made for proof of shared memories, but this post is already long enough lol.) I believe they are both in there, though after a couple hundred years they've pretty well merged into a single being.

Originally posted by Ottfried 1 + Ottfried A:

And my last question is, why does everyone says mehrunes dagon will never be able to walk on tamriel again? Martin is dead, and the barriers between mundus and oblivion shouldn´t exist anymore, right? Or is he forever fusioned with the amulet in the statue he became?

The entire point of Oblivion's ending was putting the barriers back in place, or else the Crisis would never have, you know, ended, and Skyrim would have been a desolate wasteland inhabited by roaming daedra torturing a few sad remaining survivors. :P

The amulet of kings doesn't exist anymore, Martin smashed it in the end scene. It's gone.

The barriers are permanent now because blah blah plot device blah Akatosh blah. The world no longer needs the amulet or Septim emperors, which is a good thing since there are no Septims anymore.

or are there?? this is just a weak ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥.
Septims were dragonborn
so is dovahkiin
who says your not just another basterd of the septim line hihi

[Brother Skolas]

that septim line died along with martin have you not played oblivion

[Ottfried]

Originally posted by Kage:

that septim line died along with martin have you not played oblivion

yeah, but you know how it works with emporers, don´t you? they marry, they cheat, they create bastards^^
Maybe there still are some of the septim blood, but none could ever identify them ;)

But back to the daedra, so If I kill one that is not summoned, his soul is sent back to oblivion, correct? so If I soultrap one, he is basically dead forever? So how are they reproducing?
Are there just so many that no one cares about the number or is it possible that evil souls from Aetherius turn into daedra?

[Brother Skolas]

from what i know you kill a deadra here Untrapped they get a new body back in oblivion but kill em there they are sent to the void for recycleing though if you soultrap emm doubt that they will respawn in oblivion with the addition of Dawnguard i think (skyrim) we learn that trapped souls in black soul gems aka humans mostly gaurds am i right? are sent to the soul cairn if we use that gem to enchant our weapons and armors and then the question remains what about critters aka rats and stuff not counting dremora in morrowind as i think the game back then would be unable to check wich soul would be human and wich one not mostly i think becuse trapped critters there are placed in a soulgem (rat) in stead of soul gem petty filled wich allows me to place them dagoth soul gems on my table XD am i the only one who doesnt use them to enchant weaps let them scream in agony in them gems?

[Gay Actor Michael Douglas]

Dovakhiin isn't a Septim, if there was one remaining Septim then the Mythic dawn probably would've killed him, as Martin was the last Septim.

[Brother Skolas]

if anything the main char is skyrim just happens to be the fated dragonborn who kills alduin

[RobotParty]

Dragonborns aren't exclusively Septims. It's just somebody who is born with a power given by the gods but your character is the *last* dragonborn because... Well, yeah, Alduin is dead. Hypothetically other dragons could get the same power as Alduin. Alduin, without being explained why or how, is 'special' compared to all other dragons.

[Ottfried]

the dragons where made by the gods too and I think alduin was something like the first son of akatosh and because he is the first son of a great guy he is granted special advantages, sry if I´m wrong ;)

[Maarten]

Originally posted by Ottfried 1 + Ottfried A:

the dragons where made by the gods too and I think alduin was something like the first son of akatosh and because he is the first son of a great guy he is granted special advantages, sry if I´m wrong ;)

nope your right and in the end they say prolly one day he will be back

[Ottfried]

Originally posted by Irileth:

nope your right and in the end they say prolly one day he will be back

I would really like to see what he is going to do after seeing all his followers are dead and his ability to revive dragons became useless XD

Maybe he is going to be enslaved by the tiger-cat´s to invade tamriel! I really hope some akaviri races will be playable in the next game^^


hmm, I just thought about something. what if akatosh still loves alduin and saved him from beeing absorbed by the dragonborn?

[Brother Skolas]

well why not set the next elder scrolls game round akavir that way me might know what happend to the hero of morrowind the slayer of dagoth ur wielder of the profane tools as i dont believe that keening would be able to be handled with out wraithguard wich would be extremly hard to pair up in oblivion and beyond as instead of a single gauntlant they became a pair aka gaunlets that being said they should bring back more of the older weapons they gave us crossbows so why not tower shields spears and throwing weps have them do a bigass pole of what old weapon type needs to come back and poison magic anyone? though cured rather fast
how about newer magic types exprimental magics like Just magick damage no element formed in magic missles? or darkness based kill your enemies with the shadows burn em to death with concetraded(did i got that right) magic in the form of beams make us feel powerfull with more magics i mean come only got 3 offesive elements fire frost shock not counting sun as that was more of a punishment for being a vamp have us pull out bones from the ground when summoning skellys or a half decayed bandit when sommoning a zombie though that would up the age rating but wasnt skyrim 18 plus already?

[ed]

Originally posted by Ottfried 1 + Ottfried A:

But back to the daedra, so If I kill one that is not summoned, his soul is sent back to oblivion, correct?

If you "kill" a daedra, whether summoned or not, yes. The only difference is that a summon spell collapses and the body goes back to where it came from, as opposed to a daedra who is in Mundus by some other means - *their* body will stay.

Originally posted by Ottfried 1 + Ottfried A:

so If I soultrap one, he is basically dead forever?

Daedra can't be destroyed forever, and as I recall there weren't any in the Soul Cairn. Probably once the soul gem has been broken or lost its charge, they go back to the Waters of Oblivion to wait to grow a new body. Or if they do go to the Soul Cairn, perhaps their Prince goes to demand the return of the missing vassal, who knows.

So you can only slow their return (like sticking the soul gem in a drawer and never using it), not make it so it never happens (someday, after you're dead, someone will use the gem or it'll get damaged and off the daedra goes). If you did something really elaborate to ensure the gem was hidden for eternity, you MIGHT be able to lock up a daedra "forever." But in games things like that tend to get released eventually anyway. It's hard to account for every possibility when dealing with an imprisoned immortal.

Originally posted by Ottfried 1 + Ottfried A:

So how are they reproducing? Are there just so many that no one cares about the number or is it possible that evil souls from Aetherius turn into daedra?

A recurring theme in Elder Scrolls lore is that having children requires mortality. The divines used to basically be the same as daedric princes, but they had to give up so much of themselves to make Mundus that they're not anymore. An in-game book states, on the word of a daedra I believe, that dragons cannot reproduce either. So daedra aren't reproducing, they'd essentially lose their immortality if they chose to do that.

Also, daedra are neither evil nor good. This is official word from writers at Bethesda. They are alien and dangerous, but they don't understand morality in the same way mortals do - it's like calling fire evil because it hurts you when you stick your arm in it, when it's just being fire and *can't* be anything else.

Sentient fire, for example, might think it's making things beautiful by burning them, and be unable to be convinced otherwise because our arguments make no sense to it. It would think that, clearly, humans are foolish and ignorant - but if it burns them, maybe they'll understand. That's kinda how daedra are written.

EDIT:

Originally posted by Ottfried 1 + Ottfried A:

I would really like to see what he is going to do after seeing all his followers are dead and his ability to revive dragons became useless XD

hmm, I just thought about something. what if akatosh still loves alduin and saved him from beeing absorbed by the dragonborn?

The reason Alduin could not be absorbed, and why he will come back eventually, is that he still has his cosmic job to do. The world/kalpa DOES have to end someday, there's an expanded lore document called The Seven Fights of the Aldudagga that hints that something very terrible will happen if the same world is left to run for eternity.

The reason why Alduin was in trouble with his daddy in Skyrim is that he was being lazy and arrogant and, instead of really doing his job, ran off to try to rule mortals and torment the world instead of just doing what he was supposed to do.