Does Hand to Hand in Oblivion keep getting better?

[armageddon]

It's actually a lot more satisfying then how Skyrim and Morrowind starts out with their versions.

Hand to Hand in Oblivion seems to feel like the best one compared with the other two.

[joeball123]

For the purpose of damage computations, skill and attribute values are effectively capped at 100, so no, Hand-to-Hand does not "keep getting better" inasmuch as its damage output cannot be scaled up to arbitrarily high levels.

As far as whether or not Hand-to-Hand is a reasonable option at high level, that is up to you, but for my part, no, it is not. Pugilists may not need to worry about weapon maintenance, enchantment charge, poison stockpiles, or being disarmed, but none of those nuisances even remotely compare to the pain that is beating down a dungeon full of enemies who each have several hundred to a thousand (or more) hit points ~11 damage (for a standard attack at 100 Strength and 100 Hand-to-Hand, before any applicable damage reduction) at a time. Even a masochist running around with an unenchanted weapon and no poison at level 20+ is probably suffering less, because at that point a "level-appropriate" unenchanted weapon is likely averaging at least 50% more damage per hit - at 100 Strength and 100 in the appropriate skill, Daedric weapons do between 20 and 30 damage per hit at 100% condition, or between 23 and 33 damage per hit at 125%, and until you get to really high levels you're probably not going to completely break an unenchanted Daedric weapon killing a single enemy even against things like Ogres, Minotaur Lords, and Goblin Warlords.

A further, albeit minor, issue with Hand-to-Hand is that blocking weapon attacks while unarmed does not provide any damage reduction, so a pugilist will also in general take more damage per hit received than a similarly equipped swordsman (or whatever). It can still be worth blocking attacks if you're going to fight with your fists, because doing so can make an opponent recoil (stagger) if your Block skill is at least 50 and thus creates an opening in which you can land attacks without being blocked, but it means you're limited to the 85% physical damage reduction provided by armor rather than the 92.5% for (armor cap + weapon block) or the 96.25% for (armor cap + shield block), before accounting for any applicable Reflect Damage and Resist Normal Weapons effects.

[Wai]

However, if you want an interesting challenge, there are some excellent generic magic apparel items which can greatly improve your performance once you have found them. One example is the "Ring of the Iron Fist" which will Fortify Hand to Hand by 25 pts and Reflect Damage by 33%. It is entirely possible, and quite enjoyable to play this game using only magic, hand to hand and enchanted clothing rather than traditional weapons and armour. For me, personally, the biggest drawback to hand to hand, at any level, is the inability to use poison on the first strike to soften up the opposition. This type of game demands some imaginative approaches to difficult situations.

[joeball123]

Originally posted by Wai:

However, if you want an interesting challenge, there are some excellent generic magic apparel items which can greatly improve your performance once you have found them. One example is the "Ring of the Iron Fist" which will Fortify Hand to Hand by 25 pts and Reflect Damage by 33%.

While the Ring of the Iron Fist is a good item, the Fortify Hand-to-Hand effect is very likely to be utterly irrelevant by the time you find it. It's an item that starts appearing on the leveled lists around level 20, by which point you very likely already have 100 Hand-to-Hand skill if that's your primary offensive skill and don't care about what the skill level is otherwise, and on top of that the Ring of Iron Fist is an item that only appears in random loot, which means it's very likely to take you a long time to find one, so making it an integral part of your build is not exactly well-advised.

The Ring of the Iron Fist - much like the Amulet of Axes or the Necklace of Swords - is an item that's good because of the Reflect Damage effect; the Fortify Skill effects are largely irrelevant.

Originally posted by Wai:

It is entirely possible, and quite enjoyable to play this game using only magic, hand to hand and enchanted clothing rather than traditional weapons and armour.

Thing is, you could delete Hand-to-Hand from that without losing anything - no build that's decent at high levels gets any appreciable fraction of its damage output from Hand-to-Hand.

[Wai]

I was not questioning your assessment which is very sound.

I was just pointing out that, if someone wishes to play a hand to hand character to the end it is absolutely possible, but, it does need ingenuity (in other words, rather more than straight forward punching your way past ever stronger opposition). I used the Ring of the Iron Fist as an example ("one example" sic) of something which, when/if you find it can help you get there (and, yes, it is the reflect damage which is by far the greater help). I am sorry if I did not make that clear. Also, perhaps, I should not have thought it likely that the OP's question indicated the desire to know if Hand to Hand could continue to be viable to the end. (My apologies to the OP is I got that wrong.) Sure, luck or lack of it is a significant element, but, where would you be in any game if luck did not play a part?

BTW what, exactly, is a "decent" build? I know what build I prefer, and I doubt it is the same or even similar to your preference, but, who knows there are so very many possibilities. I would have thought, a decent build is no more and no less than one which can be taken, enjoyably and successfully, to completion of the end game which for me is generally somewhere significantly north of level 30.

[psychotron666]

Originally posted by Wai:

I was not questioning your assessment which is very sound.

I was just pointing out that, if someone wishes to play a hand to hand character to the end it is absolutely possible, but, it does need ingenuity (in other words, rather more than straight forward punching your way past ever stronger opposition). I used the Ring of the Iron Fist as an example ("one example" sic) of something which, when/if you find it can help you get there (and, yes, it is the reflect damage which is by far the greater help). I am sorry if I did not make that clear. Also, perhaps, I should not have thought it likely that the OP's question indicated the desire to know if Hand to Hand could continue to be viable to the end. (My apologies to the OP is I got that wrong.) Sure, luck or lack of it is a significant element, but, where would you be in any game if luck did not play a part?

BTW what, exactly, is a "decent" build? I know what build I prefer, and I doubt it is the same or even similar to your preference, but, who knows there are so very many possibilities. I would have thought, a decent build is no more and no less than one which can be taken, enjoyably and successfully, to completion of the end game which for me is generally somewhere significantly north of level 30.

Yeah and a hand to hand build while technically can be taken to level 30+, it would be grueling and basically torture. Every leveled creature like an ogre or xivilai will take you like 10 minutes to kill per enemy by level 30.

The damage you're doing with 100 hand to hand and 100 strength is roughly equivalent to a level 1 warrior built character with an iron long sword.

So while technically possible, you're playing the grindiest game ever where every creature is essentially a dark souls boss.

[Invisible]

I employed hand to hand very successfully against all those Dremoras and other Deadric buddies. They just going to the ground, because of the stamina damage part of HtH.

If you have access to the University. You can make yourself a spell that give you + H2H skill. Or enchant your gloves with fortify H2H.

[psychotron666]

Originally posted by Invisible:

I employed hand to hand very successfully against all those Dremoras and other Deadric buddies. They just going to the ground, because of the stamina damage part of HtH.

If you have access to the University. You can make yourself a spell that give you + H2H skill. Or enchant your gloves with fortify H2H.

Dremoras are okay as well as other humanoids because their stamina is low enough, but some of the big leveled baddies like ogres have much more stamina than hp.

And fortified h2h skill (and most skills tbh except athletics and acrobatics) does nothing beyond 100.

Your max damage with hand to hand is 11.5 damage with 100 h2h and 100 strength. By comparison a regular iron longsword has a base (unmodified) damage of 10

[joeball123]

Originally posted by Wai:

BTW what, exactly, is a "decent" build?

One that doesn't take 30+ normal attacks to kill high-level enemies even when they're not the enemy types that have level-scaled HP.

Originally posted by psychotron666:

Originally posted by Invisible:

I employed hand to hand very successfully against all those Dremoras and other Deadric buddies. They just going to the ground, because of the stamina damage part of HtH.

If you have access to the University. You can make yourself a spell that give you + H2H skill. Or enchant your gloves with fortify H2H.

Dremoras are okay as well as other humanoids because their stamina is low enough, but some of the big leveled baddies like ogres have much more stamina than hp.

The other thing with that is that Dremora and Daedra are actually some of the easier enemy types to deal with late-game, because NPCs and Daedra - even Xivilai - don't have the ridiculously-high HP pools that a number of other enemy types get. Xivilai only have 336 max HP at level 30 and lack any ability to heal themselves unless maybe they rolled into a weapon with an Absorb Health enchantment; Gloom Wraiths, Ogres, Minotaur Lords, and Goblin Warlords all have well over 600 HP at the same point while Liches have 450, and both Gloom Wraiths and Liches always have access to an Absorb Health ability/spell; even Dread Zombies, with 'only' 340 max HP, likely have significantly more effective HP than most NPCs and Daedra when you're trying to kill them with a low-DPS weapon such as your fists due to their 5 HP/s passive regeneration ability.

[armageddon]

Every RPG I've played I just HAVE TO find a way to make unarmed work. It's an obsession of mine.

[psychotron666]

Originally posted by armageddon:

Every RPG I've played I just HAVE TO find a way to make unarmed work. It's an obsession of mine.

You should try fallout new Vegas and fallout 2. Both of those make unarmed super powerful, new Vegas it's probably the most broken build.

[micROmOGul]

I strongly recommend this mod for Oblivion, not overpowered, but better than vanilla:
https://www.nexusmods.com/oblivion/mods/49918

[Devsman]

I've been vocal on this forum about my criticisms of Oblivion

But when I had the most fun with the game was when I focused on hand to hand. I also found it was a lot more effective than blade or blunt. There are just a lot of advantages: speed, stamina and damaging enemies' stamina in addition to health.

[Wai]

Originally posted by Devsman:

I've been vocal on this forum about my criticisms of Oblivion

But when I had the most fun with the game was when I focused on hand to hand. I also found it was a lot more effective than blade or blunt. There are just a lot of advantages: speed, stamina and damaging enemies' stamina in addition to health.

Right on.

Hand to hand, zero armour and good use of magic makes for a great end game as well as main game. My only gripe is that you cannot use poison with hand to hand, however, I do usually carry an enchanted dagger in conjunction with sneak for administrative purposes when I think a little softening up may be efficacious. :) 20++ slashes or bashes gets tedious, though, weapons do look smart. :)

(BTW does anyone know of any worthwhile game in this genre which focuses on martial arts?)

[Apex Legends Is A Bad Game]

Try this hand to hand build out.

Race: Your choice. I picked Khajiit for the +10 bonus. Argonian/Imperial/Orc offer +5 bonus

Birthsign: The Warrior, grants a headstart on Strength and Speed. Your two most essential attributes.

Attributes: Strength, Speed, Agility, Willpower. Strength contributes to Hand to hand damage. Speed helps you move fast during combat, most effective when wearing cloth. Agility increases fatigue alongside Strength and Willpower, but also decreases your chances of being staggered. Willpower effects both magicka and fatigue regen,

Majors: Athletics, Hand To Hand, Alteration, Destruction, Restoration, Acrobatics and Sneak. Hand to hand should be main priority. Athletics and Acrobatics for maximum mobility. Sneak is useful to start combat against stronger enemies. The three magic skills all provide beneficial combat spells to give you an edge.

Minors: Everything else, but secondary focuses can be Block, Alchemy, Security. Block works surprisingly well with Hand to Hand. Alchemy to create your drinks. Security is lowest priority skill. Only really needed until you can get the skeleton key, afterwards its no longer necessary.

Weapons: None (Unarmed)

Armor: Boots of Bloody Bounding, Bands of Kwang Lao, the Eye of Sithis, and the Ring of the Vipereye. Anything I missed is your choice, so long as its light armor or cloth. Mostly cloth, but enchanted with either beneficial buffs or defenses to counter your shortcomings.

Spells: Elemental Shields, Unlock spells, Aegis, Elemental Touch Spells, Devour Health, Corrode Weapon, Greater Magicka Drain, Heal Superior Wounds

[lonetrav]

Originally posted by armageddon:

...Hand to Hand in Oblivion seems to feel like the best one compared with the other two.

Depends how you define "best" I suppose. I haven't tried Hand-To-Hand (HTH) in Oblivion or Skyrim. In Morrowind it was a bit cumbersome in the early game, but the HTH skill goes up fast early on (several increases during the first couple of fights), and then it becomes more and more powerful. I never had an easier main quest playthrough than the one with HTH (even without using trainers or other HTH improvements beyond using HTH), including the final fight with Dagoth Ur.