What's the point of leveling?

[2 Girls 1 Kaze]

I'm not complaining, but why do i need to hit an enemy more times when i level up?
At level 1, i need 4, 5 swings with my axe.
Now i need 7 to 8 times, on the same enemy...

I get that the enemies scale with me, but i don't feel really more powerful with that in mind

Any tips, by any chance?

[westrud]

With efficient leveling you will become more powerful then the enemies, with thoughtful leveling you will keep up with the enemies, with careless leveling the enemies will become more powerful then you.

Or if you want, there are ways to beat the game without leveling or with minimal leveling.

Equipment is also very important to keep up with, when new equipment starts appearing in the loot tables you want to upgrade as soon as possible.

[2 Girls 1 Kaze]

Originally posted by westrud:

With efficient leveling you will become more powerful then the enemies, with thoughtful leveling you will keep up with the enemies, with careless leveling the enemies will become more powerful then you.

Or if you want, there are ways to beat the game without leveling or with minimal leveling.

Equipment is also very important to keep up with, when new equipment starts appearing in the loot tables you want to upgrade as soon as possible.

Yeah i thought so... Thank you for the reply.

Right now, i'm playing as a Barbarian (i also played as a Mage),
and i've put all of my main points in Strength and similar attributes.
I even got better weapons, from Iron to Steel, but it still feels like a wet noodle.
Even my fists felt stronger than my weapons now ._.

[theo]

Skill level and weapon is what matters, attributes are too weak to have an impact.
The point of levelling is to see new content (enemies and items) and take Daedric quests that have a level requirement. If you're not ready, it's a good idea to not level up for a while (not sleep in bed)

[psychotron666]

The only scaled enemies at that low of a level are very specific quest enemies.

There's no same enemy otherwise that will take more hits as you level up, at least not until you hit the final tier of enemies at level 18.

[Nite69]

Because your weapons and armor are degrading as they get damaged you have to repair them and also upgrade to different weapons and armor from time to time to keep up, later in game you can get enchanted gear too to further boost your stats

becareful not to neglect major skills either you have to upgrade them evenly or you will be too weak in higher level battles

[gr1nie]

Originally posted by psychotron666:

The only scaled enemies at that low of a level are very specific quest enemies.

There's no same enemy otherwise that will take more hits as you level up, at least not until you hit the final tier of enemies at level 18.

all hostile NPCs level with the player from the beginning

[Lobo de hielo]

Originally posted by gr1nie:

Originally posted by psychotron666:

The only scaled enemies at that low of a level are very specific quest enemies.

There's no same enemy otherwise that will take more hits as you level up, at least not until you hit the final tier of enemies at level 18.

all hostile NPCs level with the player from the beginning

Exactly, there are leveled lists for this game, which always ensures NPCs level with you or when you encounter them their level/stats are determined by yours.
The calculations etc should be in the uesp.net wiki.
Same as leveled weapons, so you only start to see certain weapons at a level, I think something like elven is not seen till level 10, same sort of level you start to see will-o-wisps.

[theo]

Originally posted by gr1nie:

Originally posted by psychotron666:

The only scaled enemies at that low of a level are very specific quest enemies.

There's no same enemy otherwise that will take more hits as you level up, at least not until you hit the final tier of enemies at level 18.

all hostile NPCs level with the player from the beginning

An imp has fixed imp stats though until it's replaced with a different stronger creature.
Only human enemies and a few endgame creatures have scaling stats

[Wai]

Originally posted by theo:

Skill level and weapon is what matters, attributes are too weak to have an impact.
The point of levelling is to see new content (enemies and items) and take Daedric quests that have a level requirement. If you're not ready, it's a good idea to not level up for a while (not sleep in bed)

Disagree: -

Not all attributes are helpful or are only marginally helpful, but, this is not so with Strength and Endurance.

Strength - in isolation - gives only a modest improvement (10-15% when raised from 30 to 100) but, Strength is also a major factor in Fatigue. In isolation strength raises your fatigue by about 40% (total) between levels 30 and 100. If your fatigue (read energy) drops even slightly it affects your combat. If it drops to zero you are dead because you can no longer defend yourself so 40% more energy is a factor worth considering. Endurance increases Health cumulatively - how many hits you can absorb before dying. So, the earlier your endurance reaches 100 the greater your eventual maximum health.

If you add in high weapon skills and good equipment then you have an ideal combination. You can obtain all of these by just playing the game, but you can obtain them more quickly, if you choose to, by just a modest amount of care when levelling.

If you do not level up when the game suggests it, your level is banked and the attribute perks can be taken, by sleeping, at any time. However, be cautious about doing this as, if you bank several levels and then take them by sleeping contiguously you risk being confronted suddenly by new and more powerful enemies. Potentially this can make your situation worse not better. In my opinion, a better solution, if you are having difficulties, is to lower the difficulty slider by a couple of clicks, you can always raise it again when you feel confident to do so.

[Drunkenstein]

If it's your first time playing then it's no shame to get confused with the system. You can always just lower your difficulty if you are struggling.

[psychotron666]

Originally posted by gr1nie:

Originally posted by psychotron666:

The only scaled enemies at that low of a level are very specific quest enemies.

There's no same enemy otherwise that will take more hits as you level up, at least not until you hit the final tier of enemies at level 18.

all hostile NPCs level with the player from the beginning

The human NPCs, but it's only their gear and attributes. Attributes do so little so you won't notice much there.

All monsters until the final tier do not level with you. A rat or an imp or wolf etc all have fixed stats.

[gr1nie]

Originally posted by psychotron666:

The human NPCs, but it's only their gear and attributes. Attributes do so little so you won't notice much there.

For the record, a random khajiit bandit jumps from around 14 HP (which is lowered by a certain gamesetting for low-level NPCs) to 63 HP between Level 1 and Level 5, a 4.5 time increase. Their HP grows to 95 at level 10, and so forth. If the above user continues rolling with a basic iron war axe, they'll have a hard time matching this pace.

[joeball123]

Originally posted by psychotron666:

All monsters until the final tier do not level with you. A rat or an imp or wolf etc all have fixed stats.

This is incorrect. Many tribal goblins have uncapped level-scaled HP from game start, and Imps, Ghosts, Germinal Gnarls, Grummite Whelps, Skinned Hounds, Mangled Flesh Atronachs, Young Baliwogs, and possibly some others I'm forgetting all have HP-scaling over your first few character levels, usually ending up with 3-4 times as much HP when encountered at level 4-5 or higher as they would have had if encountered at level 1.

Imps, for example, have 15, 15, 30, or 45 HP depending on whether you encounter them at level 1, 2, 3, or 4+.

Originally posted by Wai:

]Strength - in isolation - gives only a modest improvement (10-15% when raised from 30 to 100)

Debatable. If we're only looking at physical-melee damage, the difference between 30 and 100 Strength is just shy of 40% (Strength multiplies a character's physical-melee damage by 0.9 at 30 Strength or 1.25 at 100 Strength), or perhaps a bit more if we factor in fatigue's effect since Strength indirectly affects physical-melee damage through that as well; on the other hand, good custom enchantments can so greatly surpass the weapon's physical damage as to render Strength's contribution to your damage output almost irrelevant, particularly against high-level enemies with HP pools deep enough to let auto-scaling enchantments run wild, and similarly for custom poisons, especially if applied liberally.

[Wai]

Originally posted by joeball123:

Originally posted by Wai:

]Strength - in isolation - gives only a modest improvement (10-15% when raised from 30 to 100)

Debatable. If we're only looking at physical-melee damage, the difference between 30 and 100 Strength is just shy of 40% (Strength multiplies a character's physical-melee damage by 0.9 at 30 Strength or 1.25 at 100 Strength), or perhaps a bit more if we factor in fatigue's effect since Strength indirectly affects physical-melee damage through that as well; on the other hand, good custom enchantments can so greatly surpass the weapon's physical damage as to render Strength's contribution to your damage output almost irrelevant, particularly against high-level enemies with HP pools deep enough to let auto-scaling enchantments run wild, and similarly for custom poisons, especially if applied liberally.

Which is why I said "in isolation". It is not easy to convert figures (at least for some) into actual effects. But, it is possible to see the results of different levels of strength in "combat" with a "rag doll". But, you do not fight in isolation so it is not possible to be precise when actually playing. If you do your maths there is very little difference between my figure and yours. The difference will be that your figures are raw and mine will have some variation due to fatigue, level changes while physically testing, weapon deterioration etc.

Whatever happens, eventually your character should reach the magic ceiling of 100 and you will have, and will need, all the other essential modifiers such as better/best weapons, spells, enchantments etc. Early and mid game these luxuries are not so easy to come by and it is then that even a couple of additional points of strength - and even more of fatigue might possibly be relevant. Whether a player wants to put in a little effort to improve these, considering that Strength (at least) by your reckoning or by mine is going to be quite modest mid game is a personal choice. Fatigue (influenced significantly by strength) is rather a different matter and having just 5 points of temporary loss of fatigue is quite noticeable early to mid game ("Lifting the Curse" for example.) I do not want to be constantly worrying about fatigue early to mid game, so, for me, boosting strength by wearing a cheap heavy helmet during combat is worth doing to ensure +4 or 5 strength attribute perk when levelling. I appreciate that others may not see it this way. (That helmet also needs a lot of repairs - a wee tad more to endurance - )

PS:- I love poisons they can be fantastic, but, mostly my characters cannot use them they cannot be applied to staves - more's the pity. The best poisons, like the best spells cannot be customised until the corresponding skill levels are reached.

(We could debate this "'till the cows come home", but, actually, I don't think that we are really that far apart.)

[Snickle1980]

Originally posted by Wai:

Originally posted by theo:

Skill level and weapon is what matters, attributes are too weak to have an impact.
The point of levelling is to see new content (enemies and items) and take Daedric quests that have a level requirement. If you're not ready, it's a good idea to not level up for a while (not sleep in bed)

Disagree: -

Not all attributes are helpful or are only marginally helpful, but, this is not so with Strength and Endurance.

Strength - in isolation - gives only a modest improvement (10-15% when raised from 30 to 100) but, Strength is also a major factor in Fatigue. In isolation strength raises your fatigue by about 40% (total) between levels 30 and 100. If your fatigue (read energy) drops even slightly it affects your combat. If it drops to zero you are dead because you can no longer defend yourself so 40% more energy is a factor worth considering. Endurance increases Health cumulatively - how many hits you can absorb before dying. So, the earlier your endurance reaches 100 the greater your eventual maximum health.

If you add in high weapon skills and good equipment then you have an ideal combination. You can obtain all of these by just playing the game, but you can obtain them more quickly, if you choose to, by just a modest amount of care when levelling.

If you do not level up when the game suggests it, your level is banked and the attribute perks can be taken, by sleeping, at any time. However, be cautious about doing this as, if you bank several levels and then take them by sleeping contiguously you risk being confronted suddenly by new and more powerful enemies. Potentially this can make your situation worse not better. In my opinion, a better solution, if you are having difficulties, is to lower the difficulty slider by a couple of clicks, you can always raise it again when you feel confident to do so.

You know...i always learn something new when i read walls of text from the grindiest lore riddled obsessives. The ones who have all the charts and graphs on standby. The sort of people who know name of Urial Septims cousins wife. The sort of people who can tell me how much delta V i need to reach Duna and safely orbit.

Anyway, i just mod the game so the enemies don't level with me. Not due to scaling difficulty, but for the principle of the damned thing, if that makes sense lol. I want POWER. If i murder 100 sharp pointy little men, I should gain the power from consuming their souls...not some rando NPC. Why should they gain from my hard work?