Gray Fox Plot Hole (Spoilers!!)

[Morphine Cat]

Why would the Gray Fox spend 10 years planning to steal an Elder Scroll, with all the effort and research required, and then rather than steal the damn thing himself entrust that task to someone he met a short time earlier who was willing to rob a Monastery full of blind monks?

What if you hadn't given him the Elder Scroll? Which notably he was able to read without any of the ostensibly required intense training and do so without any ill effects despite the supposed unavoidable consequence of going blind?

Maybe reading the scrolls doesn't make you blind. Maybe all that "training" is actually just a combination of training and runic magic set to trigger upon reading the scrolls in order to scare people away from attempting to glean their knowledge, and in the case of those who do it renders them less of a threat at the mercy of the Cult of the Ancestor Moth because they are suddenly without sight.

Maybe just anybody could read the Elder Scrolls with no training and no loss of capacity because the Aedra intended them to be available to bestow enlightenment on mortals and this fanatical cult has constructed this whole mythos in order to keep their power and knowledge for themselves.

Also, perhaps the Fox could always remove the cowl, but contrived this entire plot in order to provide a reasonable alibi to his former wife for his sudden disappearance, along with a convenient witness who was entirely convinced his tale was true after being put through the whole ordeal of stealing the scroll to begin with.

It is worth noting that the Dragonborn reads an Elder Scroll 200 years later and enjoys a similar lack of consequences for their actions whereas the monk who underwent the conditioning prescribed by the order was struck blind after only two viewings of the scroll.

[NOT penis man gaming]

as explained in the story, he was using the sabilla's stone and the other stuff to read it without going blind

dragonborn 200 years later also had to do something special

he probably was tired of sneaking or too old or something, considering how he so readily swore not to do it in front of his wife

[RequiemsRose]

A lot of what you do leading up to the end of that is either to prepare for it (like the key and boots) or for his use afterwards (like the stone). You also got him the materials he needs (or at least some of them) in order to safely read that scroll but that 10 years of research was all about figuring out how to make any of this possible. He's also not the only one to figure out a way to do so, there's an entire quest in skyrim based around transcribing a scroll on a dwarven lexicon so the information can be read without the blindness to so dwarves had that as an actual technology, they just poofed one day so cant exactly impart how they did so. Another about using the actual ancestor moths to safely read a scroll (though thats a DLC one, its a DLC already mentioned), and another about essentially using the time magic associated with akatosh/dragons to make it work by kind of opening it to a point in history rather than actually reading it specifically. So it's not unheard of (even in games before Oblivion) that it's possible to read scrolls without the negative effects, just most the methods used are lost/ancient knowledge (which mind you, there's a daedric lord dedicated to keeping such knowledge so it isn't entirely unattainable either, for the right price) or incredibly intensive to set up or require just the exact right mix of conditions that let some fated BS happen basically.

It also covers that he indeed can remove the cowl at any time, but no one will recognize him even when he's right there. A count that has been missing for a decade blatantly sits in his own former throne room and wanders the town daily and not a soul realizes that it's him, not even his wife, former guards, or servants (that or this is apparently an entire town in on a conspiracy to just blatantly ignore their own non-disappeared count for unknown reasons). Until he gets the scroll to name the original thief of the cowl, thereby breaking the curse on the cowl that wipes the wearers existence from history, it is impossible for even his closest associates to actually recognize him as himself. As for why he picked you, its likely because you were the exceptionally competent upstart. You proved you are capable so maybe you could do it but hey, you're also new, if you fail you are expendable as well, not a huge loss. Even if you pull it off and decide to get greedy then, an elder scroll is valuable but realistically what are you going to do with an item you cant actually use that is so easily recognizable that literally any layman will know its stolen goods? Just hope that some other eccentric rich guy just happens to need the info on that specific scroll and has the means to actually bother with getting it from you without just outright having you killed or something? It's an item that's so "hot" it's functionally useless if you cant actually USE it, which you're character can't as far as we know. There's no actual motivation to betray him besides sheer stupidity, it's solely about whether or not you can even pull it off.

[Morphine Cat]

Originally posted by RequiemsRose:

It also covers that he indeed can remove the cowl at any time, but no one will recognize him even when he's right there. A count that has been missing for a decade blatantly sits in his own former throne room and wanders the town daily and not a soul realizes that it's him, not even his wife, former guards, or servants (that or this is apparently an entire town in on a conspiracy to just blatantly ignore their own non-disappeared count for unknown reasons).

Literally the only confirmation we have of this "curse" is his say so. Nothing else in the game I've come across made reference to it, and Nocturnal certainly doesn't admit to it.

My contention is that he's full of ♥♥♥♥. He didn't try to identify himself to anyone, he was just off playing King of the Bandits for 10 years and then decided he wanted to go home, but knew his wife wasn't about to accept "I felt like being selfish" as an explanation for his absence. So he cooked up this whole curse story and used the PC as an unwitting alibi for his ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥.

He's just another douchebag that ran around on his wife and made up a ♥♥♥♥ and bull story to cover his ass. He's a dog.

[Morphine Cat]

If the stone you stole makes it possible to read Elder Scrolls without suffering blindness, why was it all the monks are still running around with those things around their eyes when they were the ones in possession of the stone before you steal it?

I maintain my position that anyone can read an Elder Scroll and all that ♥♥♥♥ about blindness is the result of secret cult activities contrived by the Empire in order to maintain a monopoly on the scrolls and the knowledge they impart. Call it an insurance policy against others using the scrolls to overthrow their dynasty and finally put an end to the oppression of Cyrodil over the many formerly independent nations of Tamriel.

FREE BLACK MARSH!!! FREE ELSEWYR!!! DEATH TO THE IMPERIALS!!!

Can you tell I'm a bit of an anti-establishment type?

[psychotron666]

Originally posted by Morphine Cat:

Originally posted by RequiemsRose:

It also covers that he indeed can remove the cowl at any time, but no one will recognize him even when he's right there. A count that has been missing for a decade blatantly sits in his own former throne room and wanders the town daily and not a soul realizes that it's him, not even his wife, former guards, or servants (that or this is apparently an entire town in on a conspiracy to just blatantly ignore their own non-disappeared count for unknown reasons).

Literally the only confirmation we have of this "curse" is his say so. Nothing else in the game I've come across made reference to it, and Nocturnal certainly doesn't admit to it.

My contention is that he's full of ♥♥♥♥. He didn't try to identify himself to anyone, he was just off playing King of the Bandits for 10 years and then decided he wanted to go home, but knew his wife wasn't about to accept "I felt like being selfish" as an explanation for his absence. So he cooked up this whole curse story and used the PC as an unwitting alibi for his ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥.

He's just another douchebag that ran around on his wife and made up a ♥♥♥♥ and bull story to cover his ass. :dante: He's a dog.

He sits 20 feet away from his wife and she has no idea who he is. The curse is pretty evident.

[NOT penis man gaming]

if anybody could read it without being blinded, how in the world did the moth priests and dexion get blinded?

Originally posted by Morphine Cat:

If the stone you stole makes it possible to read Elder Scrolls without suffering blindness, why was it all the monks are still running around with those things around their eyes when they were the ones in possession of the stone before you steal it?

im pretty sure it was destroyed when the gray fox used it

Originally posted by RequiemsRose:

=He's also not the only one to figure out a way to do so, there's an entire quest in skyrim based around transcribing a scroll on a dwarven lexicon so the information can be read without the blindness to so dwarves had that as an actual technology, they just poofed one day so cant exactly impart how they did so.

the lexicon was to open the dwemer container with the oghma infinium in it

Originally posted by Morphine Cat:

Literally the only confirmation we have of this "curse" is his say so. Nothing else in the game I've come across made reference to it, and Nocturnal certainly doesn't admit to it.

My contention is that he's full of ♥♥♥♥. He didn't try to identify himself to anyone, he was just off playing King of the Bandits for 10 years and then decided he wanted to go home, but knew his wife wasn't about to accept "I felt like being selfish" as an explanation for his absence. So he cooked up this whole curse story and used the PC as an unwitting alibi for his ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥.

He's just another douchebag that ran around on his wife and made up a ♥♥♥♥ and bull story to cover his ass. :dante: He's a dog.

then why would he make you aware of it then make you go get savilla's stone and whatnot? if there was no curse he wouldn'tve asked for your help and just took it off in front of his wife

Originally posted by RequiemsRose:

A lot of what you do leading up to the end of that is either to prepare for it (like the key and boots) or for his use afterwards (like the stone). You also got him the materials he needs (or at least some of them) in order to safely read that scroll but that 10 years of research was all about figuring out how to make any of this possible. He's also not the only one to figure out a way to do so, there's an entire quest in skyrim based around transcribing a scroll on a dwarven lexicon so the information can be read without the blindness to so dwarves had that as an actual technology, they just poofed one day so cant exactly impart how they did so. Another about using the actual ancestor moths to safely read a scroll (though thats a DLC one, its a DLC already mentioned), and another about essentially using the time magic associated with akatosh/dragons to make it work by kind of opening it to a point in history rather than actually reading it specifically. So it's not unheard of (even in games before Oblivion) that it's possible to read scrolls without the negative effects, just most the methods used are lost/ancient knowledge (which mind you, there's a daedric lord dedicated to keeping such knowledge so it isn't entirely unattainable either, for the right price) or incredibly intensive to set up or require just the exact right mix of conditions that let some fated BS happen basically.

It also covers that he indeed can remove the cowl at any time, but no one will recognize him even when he's right there. A count that has been missing for a decade blatantly sits in his own former throne room and wanders the town daily and not a soul realizes that it's him, not even his wife, former guards, or servants (that or this is apparently an entire town in on a conspiracy to just blatantly ignore their own non-disappeared count for unknown reasons). Until he gets the scroll to name the original thief of the cowl, thereby breaking the curse on the cowl that wipes the wearers existence from history, it is impossible for even his closest associates to actually recognize him as himself. As for why he picked you, its likely because you were the exceptionally competent upstart. You proved you are capable so maybe you could do it but hey, you're also new, if you fail you are expendable as well, not a huge loss. Even if you pull it off and decide to get greedy then, an elder scroll is valuable but realistically what are you going to do with an item you cant actually use that is so easily recognizable that literally any layman will know its stolen goods? Just hope that some other eccentric rich guy just happens to need the info on that specific scroll and has the means to actually bother with getting it from you without just outright having you killed or something? It's an item that's so "hot" it's functionally useless if you cant actually USE it, which you're character can't as far as we know. There's no actual motivation to betray him besides sheer stupidity, it's solely about whether or not you can even pull it off.

yes

[Fuzzyballs01 ꦙ]

well I'm gonna say the smart thing here
wouldn't make much of a thieves guild story if all you do is hear about the leader of the thieves guild stealing all these items to remove his magical cowl

[Fuzzyballs01 ꦙ]

Originally posted by Morphine Cat:

Originally posted by RequiemsRose:

It also covers that he indeed can remove the cowl at any time, but no one will recognize him even when he's right there. A count that has been missing for a decade blatantly sits in his own former throne room and wanders the town daily and not a soul realizes that it's him, not even his wife, former guards, or servants (that or this is apparently an entire town in on a conspiracy to just blatantly ignore their own non-disappeared count for unknown reasons).

Literally the only confirmation we have of this "curse" is his say so. Nothing else in the game I've come across made reference to it, and Nocturnal certainly doesn't admit to it.

My contention is that he's full of ♥♥♥♥. He didn't try to identify himself to anyone, he was just off playing King of the Bandits for 10 years and then decided he wanted to go home, but knew his wife wasn't about to accept "I felt like being selfish" as an explanation for his absence. So he cooked up this whole curse story and used the PC as an unwitting alibi for his ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥.

He's just another douchebag that ran around on his wife and made up a ♥♥♥♥ and bull story to cover his ass. :dante: He's a dog.

what
try putting on the cowl, look at your stats
You cannot be identified while wearing the cowl, and even if you take it off right in front of others, they won't associate you with the Gray Fox. Every time you put the cowl on, your bounty is set to 500 gold and your infamy is set to 100. When you take off the Cowl your own stats return. You can rack up a huge bounty as the Gray Fox, which will only be active when the mask is on, enabling players to go on crime sprees essentially consequence-free since they can just remove the mask.

and that is AFTER the count used an elder scroll to undo the part of the magic that makes everyone forget the person under the mask
it's also a way to "cheat" the game, you can't be infamous to wear the knights of the nine armour set, so if you wear the cowl, and do illegal stuff, the infamy goes to the grey fox, when you take it off your stats are returned
you can go through the dark brotherhood quests after the knights of the nine without having to go on a second round trip to all the wayshrines

[libertasgrace]

Originally posted by Morphine Cat:

Originally posted by RequiemsRose:

It also covers that he indeed can remove the cowl at any time, but no one will recognize him even when he's right there. A count that has been missing for a decade blatantly sits in his own former throne room and wanders the town daily and not a soul realizes that it's him, not even his wife, former guards, or servants (that or this is apparently an entire town in on a conspiracy to just blatantly ignore their own non-disappeared count for unknown reasons).

Literally the only confirmation we have of this "curse" is his say so. Nothing else in the game I've come across made reference to it, and Nocturnal certainly doesn't admit to it.

My contention is that he's full of ♥♥♥♥. He didn't try to identify himself to anyone, he was just off playing King of the Bandits for 10 years and then decided he wanted to go home, but knew his wife wasn't about to accept "I felt like being selfish" as an explanation for his absence. So he cooked up this whole curse story and used the PC as an unwitting alibi for his ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥.

He's just another douchebag that ran around on his wife and made up a ♥♥♥♥ and bull story to cover his ass. :dante: He's a dog.

The curse does work, because if you come up to him when he's in the throne room or that tiny house in Anvil, he's simply The Stranger, and I think he even admits he tells you his name and says you don't remember it. And I believe if you try to ask the Countess about him, she doesn't recall him.

[NOT penis man gaming]

if there was no curse there would be no questline, it would just be haha i go steal things and get money

[Valden21]

OP, read the lore. UESP's lore entry on the Gray Cowl plainly states that anybody who puts on the cowl INSTANTLY becomes unfamiliar to everyone else; they become the Gray Fox, and nothing else. The game itself reinforces this; during the Thieves' Guild questline, there's a part where you meet an NPC simply labeled as "A Stranger". It's not until the end of the questline, when the Gray Fox breaks the curse and reveals his true identity, that you recognize him as the same guy.

[♚ Akko II]

The Gray Fox explains to you that the moment you'd put the cowl on, your name would get erased from history. It's the curse of the Nocturnal. And the only way to undo that would be to break the curse. To find out how to break the curse, he needed to read the Elder scroll.

He didn't go blind, but that's because reading the scrolls itself does not make you blind. According to the lore, the Elder scrolls contain prophecies. And each time you successfully prophecise sth using the scroll, you will lose sight for some time until you eventually go blind. The Gray Fox wasn't interested in prophecies, he only wanted to learn how to break the curse of Nocturnal.

Why did he ask you to steal the Elder scroll? He wanted to retire. To do that, you generally need a successor and to be alive. Plus, he didn't know what was in the Old way, so better to send someone who can die first. :P
What if you didn't give him the Elder scroll? Perhaps he'd find you and pickpocket you sometime after the game. We don't really know, but it's not really important.

[NOT penis man gaming]

Originally posted by ♚ Akko II:

The Gray Fox explains to you that the moment you'd put the cowl on, your name would get erased from history. It's the curse of the Nocturnal. And the only way to undo that would be to break the curse. To find out how to break the curse, he needed to read the Elder scroll.

He didn't go blind, but that's because reading the scrolls itself does not make you blind. According to the lore, the Elder scrolls contain prophecies. And each time you successfully prophecise sth using the scroll, you will lose sight for some time until you eventually go blind. The Gray Fox wasn't interested in prophecies, he only wanted to learn how to break the curse of Nocturnal.

Why did he ask you to steal the Elder scroll? He wanted to retire. To do that, you generally need a successor and to be alive. Plus, he didn't know what was in the Old way, so better to send someone who can die first. :P
What if you didn't give him the Elder scroll? Perhaps he'd find you and pickpocket you sometime after the game. We don't really know, but it's not really important.

lebron james reportedly commented on year-old steam forums post

[SadPlatty©]

Adding to the Necro to say - surprised nobody challenged OP about the blindness while reading the scroll via what literally happens in Skyrim when you attempt to do so.

When you get one of the scrolls - you can indeed attempt to read it right then, and the scroll begins glowing really bright then the screen goes dark/impossible to see for a moment. Obviously the game isn't going to let you be blind as it would need to either end your quest there or somehow adapt to only 3rd person camera/echo-location vision or some BS.

The "vision coming back" I guess at that point could be chalked up as divine intervention, since the main character in every Bethesda game is the "the chosen champion of those who where chosen ones themselves". The eight and one probably sigh every time you open it before Akatosh reverses the ocular damage the Dragonborn keeps subjecting themselves too as a parlor trick at all the big-wig Eldmari parties.