Leveling System is garbage. Confirm/Deny?

[Dumpressa]

I say confirmed because wow, having to grind stats in a specific way to increase attributes well is really bad. It's not even challenging, it's just insanely boring and time-consuming. Also gotta love the fact that most stats are hardcapped at 100 so unless you enjoy redundant skills, you'll have to make some screwed up weird custom class in order to get your attributes up.

Would have wished this game was as good as Morrowind, where at least you can alchemy yourself into a superman instead.

[cyäegha]

C

it was objectively trash

like, it's not even an argument, really

hence why the uncapper and one of the two leveling mods (not to mention OOO or scaling ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥) are almost mandatory

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

I didn't mind the leveling system, but eventually I did make a few changes to it to make it a little bit more flexible for Efficient Leveling.

I changed the Armorer attribute from Endurance to Strength like Morrowind and changed H2H to Endurance so it works like Spear in Morrowind. That way repairing your equipment can help level up your strength along with your weapon of choice and you can punch things to level up Endurance.

Then I changed Athletics, so that the swimming skill up rate is triple vanilla. That way running is the same as vanilla, but if you want to intentionally level Athletics, you just go swimming to speed it up.

I changed Acrobatics so that fall damage doubles your XP rate while jumping is the same, so if you want to level up Athletics you just fall and take damage.

I also changed Marksman, Mercantile, Restoration and Speechcraft, so their skill up rate is higher so you don't have to grind them to skill up.

On my next playthrough though, I am thinking about using the leveling mod Oblivion XP.

[Brandybuck]

It's not garbage, it's not broken, but it definitely chipped and frayed.

It's essentially the same leveling system as Morrowind, ever so slightly simplified (mainly just seven class skills instead of five major and five minor). The problem is that where Morrowind is a static and unchanging world, Oblivion has enemies that level along with you. To stay ahead of the enemies you have to spend much more time managing your skills and leveling. A half-way decent build is still doable, because as the player you will always have some advantages over enemies, but a bad build can make the game unplayable.

Skryim did it a better way, where the enemies had level ranges, and in my opinion, Fallout 4 did it even better by having level ranges AND difficulty zones (rubber banding). The trick for Bethesda is keeping the challenge level high while still giving the player the sense that he's improving.

Personally I use Galerion's Leveling mod.

p.s. The other problem is just my personal opinion: I don't the TES style of attributes, which get bonuses every level. I would rather see static attributes that do not change except through special circumstances (artifacts, etc).

[ManualMakron]

It's challenging, so I like it. It's trashy to those who don't like to spend time thinking about what to do with their skills.

[Brandybuck]

Originally posted by Marko♣™:

It's challenging, so I like it. It's trashy to those who don't like to spend time thinking about what to do with their skills.

I spend a LOT of time thinking about what to do with my skills. Not so much that I need to be tracking all of my improvements in a spreadsheet, but my skills are more than passing whims. My problem is that enemy level strongly encourages one particular way of thinking about skills. It emphases combat skills over non-combat skills. It's a game where the stock Healer class has Destruction as a class skill!

I am not criticizing the whole game! I am only criticizing one tiny corner of the game, and that corner isn't even player leveling, it's merely the enemy leveling. It's not that I'm failing to think about what to do with my skills, it's that I'm fighting marauders in ebony armor.

[Bansheebutt]

Brasher's Overhaul is my go to fix for the Enemy levelling. It's a lot more lightweight than OOO (almost vanilla in comparison). Fixes all the two-bit bandits being in deadric armour. Also allows all creatures to spawn at any time. Found a Lich at level 8 in Vilveran where I thought I'd find just a couple skeletons. Best part is while it was a comparably challenging battle, it wasn't totally impossible like it would have been in OOO. Enemy scaling done right?! Who would have thought!

I also made a personal mod that lowers the Attribute Bonus requirements. I absolutely *hate* the borderline requirement of so called "Effecient Levelling." Not to mention how impractical they are for getting anything more than a +2 bonus without resorting to gamey behavior.

Originally posted by Marko♣™:

It's trashy to those who don't like to spend time thinking about what to do with their skills.

You mean levelling off-class skills just so that you can get anything more than a +2 bonus to your attributes? The fact a Warrior class can struggle getting a large bonus to *Strength* on level-up without resorting to going armourless without blocking should be an indicator there's a serious problem somewhere. Especially when you need those large bonuses because the vanilla enemies are only getting tankier and tankier with each level-up.

Originally posted by Brandybuck:

It's a game where the stock Healer class has Destruction as a class skill!

Well, Destruction does have Non-lethal options. Damage Fatigue and Disintegrate, primarily. You could argue for more nefarious healers to make use of Damage attribute spells. All Good combos with what's available in Illusion and Alteration.

Certainly one of those things I like about Oblivion over Skyrim.

[ManualMakron]

Indeed. Some things are obviously poorly designed.

[////]

false, false, false. and knowing how moddable this game is, your claim becomes idiotically subjective.

even when playing without mods and not using difficulty slider, it only demands some planning. and if planning in a crpg is "time-consuming" to you, get a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ real job and stop lying to yourself.

and if you are here just to troll, well... you are 10 years too late, pal.

[Dumpressa]

Nice angry reply in response to me subjectively claiming this leveling system sucks. If it didn't suck so much, why do multiple mods replacing it exist? Even without full on replacing it, there are still mods that allow for passive attribute gains from raising skills so clearly even if the entire idea of raising skills themselves wasn't awful, someone still thought the execution wasn't too hot to begin with and needed something less terrible.

Edit: Given how aggressive you seem, apparently a decade isn't late enough to not apparently anger someone just by talking negative about a part of a videogame.

[////]

Originally posted by Okosan:

If it didn't suck so much, why do multiple mods replacing it exist?

there's a mod for skyrim allowing you to play as a pony. by your logic, dragonborn sucks that hard?

[Dumpressa]

I didn't realize that dragonborn was a terribly executed leveling system that was controversial at best for roughly a decade. Try harder.

[////]

you, sir, should try harder if a first mountain lion you meet behind imperial city walls shreads your face off.

use the console, lower difficulty, download a mod or 2, but don't whine about leveling system if you are so miserably lazy to get into it.

[Dumpressa]

You're the one making an idiotic comparison. Also, a game shouldn't have to have an artificial difficulty slider at all if they actually bothered to design a leveling system that didn't involve grinding away for very specific amounts for certain skills just because the rest of the game is so brain dead simple, but whatever.

Congrats, you made your point about an ancient leveling system that's apparently so precious that you personally had to come along and defend it without any actual substantial argument as to why it's actually good but instead come off as a pathetic reactionary to any sort of critique.

[KaiTenSatsuma]

Hm.

On one hand I enjoy the wider variety of skills that are a combination of useful or entertaining (Who doesn't like just randomly pulling a Jesus across water? or with a mod or two have Punchng people to death be a legitimate option), and disliked how over-simplified Skyrim and Fallout 4 have been when it comes to character building.

Oooon the other hand, the stat distribution system is kind of gimpy - it would have been better to earn a static amount of points to distribute instead of "Hey, you forgot to train an endurance skill? Well go ♥♥♥♥ yourself"

[////]

Originally posted by Okosan:

Congrats, you made your point about an ancient leveling system that's apparently so precious that you personally had to come along and defend it without any actual substantial argument as to why it's actually good but instead come off as a pathetic reactionary to any sort of critique.

efficient leveling is an option in this game, not a necessity. and what is not a necessity in a deep crpg, that shouldn't be simple.

why unique leveling systems are better than those casual-friendly and simplified (like in most mmo's...)? by playing similar and simple rpg's over and over you do not progress a player, nor you progress as a person.