What exactly are Level-List conflicts?

[MonkeyMummyMoney]

My understanding is that Level list are basically scripted events that change depending on the player level, and if two things are added to that level list without proper support the game doesn't know what to do with them and so it forces it to crash. (Like... A level 5 bandit having a silver axe or A crate having Mutton in it)

If the above is accurate, would not allowing completely random lists be not only more stable but also more realistic? There's no real reason why everyone is roughly your level, there's also no reason why everyone should be much stronger or weaker then you. To truly reflect the world it would make the most sense for everything to be random or at least to a certain degree random.

What are the Pros of a Leveled-List and what are the cons of a random list (Outside of making the game possibly much more difficult or much more easier) and would a happy medium of the two be the better option.

[IdealPoint]

No. It would take you two minutes in google to find out exactly what leveled lists are and how they are applied in Oblivion. The reason a conflict between leveled lists in mods causes crashes is because Oblivion crashes when multiple mods alter the same values. It doesn't have anything to do with your example, and it isn't a specific problem with leveled lists.

Completely random lists won't work because the game isn't designed around inserting randomly generated characters in the game. A minotaur can only use certain weapons, and can't equip armor by default. The animations aren't there for him to do so, there aren't meshes for armor that would conform to his body shape, etc. And even if you did randomize things as much as you could, it still wouldn't prevent crashes from mod conflicts.

The pros of using leveled lists are that you don't run into a level 80 character in full daedric armor on level 1 that instantly kills you. The cons of a randomized list are that the game would be impossible and would still crash from mod conflicts.

[MonkeyMummyMoney]

Originally posted by IdealPoint:

The pros of using leveled lists are that you don't run into a level 80 character in full daedric armor on level 1 that instantly kills you.

To me that's a pro, makes it more realistic.

[Johnny Casey]

From my understanding, the 'original intention' of using a leveled-list is to provide challenge to players regardless of their character level, as quite literally everything will always level up with you; if you decided to not level up and forever stuck at level 1, the world around you will also stuck at 'World for level 1 player' state.

Obviously that wasn't a good decision, as it would mean the players have to make their each level ups as efficient as possible, or else they will end up with characters with 'high level but low stats' that will make everything around them far stronger than they are, which goes against what they have intended.

[IdealPoint]

Originally posted by Johnny Casey:

From my understanding, the 'original intention' of using a leveled-list is to provide challenge to players regardless of their character level, as quite literally everything will always level up with you; if you decided to not level up and forever stuck at level 1, the world around you will also stuck at 'World for level 1 player' state.

Obviously that wasn't a good decision, as it would mean the players have to make their each level ups as efficient as possible, or else they will end up with characters with 'high level but low stats' that will make everything around them far stronger than they are, which goes against what they have intended.

If the devs made a mistake in designing a leveling process that lets you become weaker than enemies, that is a problem with the leveling system, not leveled lists.

There are ways that leveled lists can and have been improved. For example, many of the overhauls like OOO will create zones where certain enemies have a minimum or maximum level, and they limit the equipment that some enemies will have. So you may wander in to areas that have enemies that are too strong to take on early, possibly guarding very powerful equipment or powerful bosses. SImilarly, you can get the feeling of progression from facing some enemies that are much lower level than you. And daedric/glass by lore was supposed to be very rare, so preventing it from showing up on every bandit after you hit a certain level makes some sense.

[MonkeyMummyMoney]

Originally posted by Johnny Casey:

Obviously that wasn't a good decision, as it would mean the players have to make their each level ups as efficient as possible, or else they will end up with characters with 'high level but low stats' that will make everything around them far stronger than they are, which goes against what they have intended.

My friend, you just summed up Oblivion level-up system without even realizing. Without mods you have to micromanage just about every aspect of your save file to ensure you get ideal bonus points on level up.

That's why Speech-Craft isn't a skill worth investing in because it gives you bonus points to personality despite personality being pretty much useless. As fun as it is to have an entire city be your best-friend and then start a fight with the guards to watch the madness unfold, it's really not anything worth investing in. Shame, really.

[Johnny Casey]

Originally posted by IdealPoint:

If the devs made a mistake in designing a leveling process that lets you become weaker than enemies, that is a problem with the leveling system, not leveled lists.

Originally posted by Vaniity Velvet:

My friend, you just summed up Oblivion level-up system without even realizing. Without mods you have to micromanage just about every aspect of your save file to ensure you get ideal bonus points on level up.

Nah, I don't think the issue lies with the level-up system. You see, Morrowind also has pretty much the same level-up system, but you don't have to make your level-ups as efficient as possible in Morrowind, because the leveled-list works differently than it is in Oblivion.

I've never seen anyone complaining about Morrowind's level scaling that makes the players actually weaker the more they try to level up without doing so efficiently, whereas in Oblivion - despite having the same level-up system as in Morrowind - people complain a lot about level scaling. So the problem is the Oblivion's leveled-list that always try to match the level of the players.

Imagine Cliff Racers in Morrowind being always at the same level as the players with its matching stat formula that keeps up with its level, just like how Oblivion did with bunch of other monsters. Can you imagine that?

[MonkeyMummyMoney]

Originally posted by Johnny Casey:

I've never seen anyone complaining about Morrowind's level scaling that makes the players actually weaker the more they try to level up without doing so efficiently, whereas in Oblivion - despite having the same level-up system as in Morrowind - people complain a lot about level scaling. So the problem is the Oblivion's leveled-list that always try to match the level of the players.

The only thing Morrowind has in common with Oblivion are the bonus attributes on level up. Leveled lists don't matter because the world isn't going to be at your level anyways. The problem with oblivion isn't really even the fact that the world levels with you, it's problem is that the game barely explains how bonus attributes are rewarded and there's little forgiveness for them.

Level up Athletics on accident or Alchemy or Mercantile and your entire build is ♥♥♥♥♥♥. On lower difficulties it's not really a problem, it's only an issue when it's maxed out, which most people don't play so they never really notice. The reason no one really plays maxed out difficulty is because of the myth that Oblivion is literally impossible maxed out and the reason it's literally impossible is because the game never explains how the bonus attributes work and the people who are aware of it aren't interested in the extreme micromanaging required to pull it off and so choose to play on a lower difficulty where the downside of tripping over a rock and leveling up acrobatics isn't a run ending accident.


They screwed the pooch pretty hard on the leveling system in Oblivion and their solution to the problem in Skyrim is an extreme overreaction. "You can't ♥♥♥♥ up builds when attributes aren't a thing!"

The entire world leveling with you only makes sense if you got a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ huge map to work with. Like.. TR as an example, is big even unfinished. You don't want to play around in Varrdenfell until basically level cap, then go do stuff in TR just to find that everything is stupidly easy and the rewards are abysmal.

In the case of TR their quests aren't perfect, but their solution is much better. The TR world actively changes based off other things you've done, some of the quests interacting with eachother. (Kill X deadra lord for a quest and he pops up in a different quest as an alternative means to finishing it.) or my personal favorite, Skill-checks. You can do a quest normally, or you can use your high skills to either complete it instantly, change the reward, change the outcome or allow you to pursue said quest in a different manner.

[Johnny Casey]

Originally posted by Vaniity Velvet:

The problem with oblivion isn't really even the fact that the world levels with you, it's problem is that the game barely explains how bonus attributes are rewarded and there's little forgiveness for them. Level up Athletics on accident or Alchemy or Mercantile and your entire build is ♥♥♥♥♥♥.

But *why* would your build screwed up if you ever accidentally level up any skills that you don't want to in Oblivion? Why is that such a problem?

You see, if you make a same mistake in Morrowind, it's not exactly a big deal. Your build won't get screwed if you accidentally level up a skill that you have not planned. Why is that?

Why do you have to micromanage your each level ups in Oblivion, and you don't necessarily have to do so in Morrowind?

The reason is simple. Oblivion punishes the players for leveling up their characters inefficiently, by having a leveled list that always level up with the players, whereas in Morrowind - thanks to its leveled list that doesn't always level up with the players - shows a little forgiveness towards those who did not make their level ups as efficient as possible.

So yeah. The leveled list is the issue, not the leveling system. Please read.

Originally posted by Vaniity Velvet:

The reason no one really plays maxed out difficulty is because of the myth that Oblivion is literally impossible maxed out and the reason it's literally impossible is because the game never explains (...)

I think you were tripping with something at this point.