Do we still need Wrye Bash?

[Huggles the Cat]

I'm unsure about what Wrye Bash can do that Mod Organizer can't. I see that in the past, Wrye Bash was probably a helpful and necessary too. But, is it really still needed? I'm modding oblivion with a combination of Mod Organizer and OBMM but all the mods that nexus claims or recommends to install with Wrye seem to install fine with Mod Organizer. A good example is the Sounds of Cryodiil mod. When installed using MO it shows up as fine when looking at the files before completing installation. Are example like this a "false positive" and I still need to install using Wrye Bash?

[cyäegha]

yes

while bash can install most mods (except for .OMOD packages), the main value lies in the bashed patch, which MO doesn't have the facility to create or edit

of course, if you don't know what a bashed patch is, you probably don't need it

[Huggles the Cat]

Originally posted by cyäegha:

yes

while bash can install most mods (except for .OMOD packages), the main value lies in the bashed patch, which MO doesn't have the facility to create or edit

of course, if you don't know what a bashed patch is, you probably don't need it

I've heard of bashed patches but have yet to use or make one. Do they need to be made before a mod is installed or is it fine to go back and make one any time after instalation?

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

A bashed patched is optimal when modding as it helps provide maximum compatibility with your mods. A bashed patch safely merges all the mods that modify the leveled lists, so all changes to the leveled lists show up in the game and work together.

You can wait to make a bashed patch as a last step, after you finish installing your mods. It is very easy to make one.

A bashed patch needs to be made after you initially install all your mods or before you play the game and every time you install a new mod and/or re-sort your load order as a result of installing a new mod.

[Huggles the Cat]

Originally posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten:

A bashed patched is optimal when modding as it helps provide maximum compatibility with your mods. A bashed patch safely merges all the mods that modify the leveled lists, so all changes to the leveled lists show up in the game and work together.

You can wait to make a bashed patch as a last step, after you finish installing your mods. It is very easy to make one.

A bashed patch needs to be made after you initially install all your mods or before you play the game and every time you install a new mod and/or re-sort your load order as a result of installing a new mod.

In the case of Mod Organizer, would I need to make a new patch every time I activate/deactive already installed mods or make a patch for each profile?

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Unfortunately I have never used Mod Organizer, so I couldn't tell you anything about using Wrye Bash with it.

Typically if you deactivate a mod with an esp, you will have to rebuild the patch if you plan to play without the esp, because the game may crash if the bashed patch uses the esp as a master. Even if the patch doesn't use the esp as a master, removing an esp will cause your esp files to become out of order in the patch, so it is ideal to rebuild it. It only takes a few minutes to do it.

[ZarahNeander]

In my not so limited experience with bash, be very wary with bashed patches. Bash is not a NASA sponsored AI program, it tries to merge records according to some formal rules and it often gets it wrong. The less you merge and the more you resolve conflicts via load order, the better. Is it really a good idea to merge npc faces? Does it even make sense?

Always check your patch for errors with TesEdit and if TesEdit complains about illegal records, take that serious. In one case bash assigned a 2g hair length to a npc which unsurprisingly made the engine crash..indeed a bit hard to render xD

You dont need and you dont want to install mods with bash. Ever. If you *need* a bashed patch pretty much depends if you have mods that add items/creatures to leveled lists, mods like OOO/MMM/Frans certainly need a merged patch. Dont follow any step guide to the letter, use your brain to decide what you need and what you want to merge. I'd stay away from 'import cells' which might screw up nav meshes and -see above- import npc faces.

And finally, trust the fcom pros at beth forums and use boss, not loot, to sort your LO. Loot support for oblivion is minimal to say the least. I spend weeks to get a stable FCOM installation and I finally got a virtually crash free setup once I a) switched to boss and b) stripped down the bash options to a minimum

[cyäegha]

Originally posted by Lollipop:

The less you merge and the more you resolve conflicts via load order, the better. Is it really a good idea to merge npc faces? Does it even make sense?

attempting to resolve any conflict beyond levelled list management or hair/eye assignment with bash falls more under 'user error' than the fault of the program

Originally posted by Lollipop:

In one case bash assigned

bash didn't assign anything you didn't specifically tell it to

Originally posted by Lollipop:

You dont need and you dont want to install mods with bash. Ever.

what is BAIN

while it is easier to just manually install, installing any non-specialized format mod with bash is no different to a plain old copy/paste overwrite; it's not ideal for fine-grained control, but hardly as end-of-the-world as you like to make it seem

[Huggles the Cat]

Originally posted by cyäegha:

Originally posted by Lollipop:

You dont need and you dont want to install mods with bash. Ever.

what is BAIN

while it is easier to just manually install, installing any non-specialized format mod with bash is no different to a plain old copy/paste overwrite; it's not ideal for fine-grained control, but hardly as end-of-the-world as you like to make it seem

From what i'm aware of, BAIN is similar to things like fomods and omods, in that it is a packaged assembly tool for the mod you are installing. I've worked a little with them a year or more ago and I think I remember them having a prepackaged installer wizard with them. They didn't seem to work with MO at the time but I'm sure that's because I wasn't doing a corect workaround of some sort (I have learnd a lot of my past errors on moding oblivion with MO this time around, seems most anything can be installed to it but only if you install it with a program run through MO).

[Huggles the Cat]

Originally posted by Lollipop:

In my not so limited experience with bash, be very wary with bashed patches. Bash is not a NASA sponsored AI program

Thats some new terminology for me. What an NASA program? Sounds like some sort of official/unofficial Bethesda stuff ;for the mod scene, like TES4Edit (which I don't know crap about using).

[ManualMakron]

Wrye Bash is the best tool available for all Elder Scroll games. One of it's most valuable features is the bashed patch. Which when created allows the user to fine tune a lot of details of what goes in to it. The purpose of the bashed patch is to merge not only changes to the leveled lists, but to pretty much everything else. There's a clear logic behind it. Since the program itself relies on the load order that is defined by the user. Using OBMM or LOOT helps deal with conflicts. Wrye Bash also includes BAIN installation method which is very useful for texture mods and BAIN also has its own install order which can be used to determine which files get overwritten or not. It also has the feature of showing when there are conflicts on what files. Also BAIN has a feature that once you uninstall a mod that has files that overwrite the original ones, it returns the old files afterwards. Also, there are plenty of mods that support BAIN installation which usually means they come with the necessary installing wizard or the files are simply organized in the BAIN format.

I'm pretty sure there are other things that I still haven't mentioned yet, but aren't as important.

[cyäegha]

Originally posted by Mr.Huggles:

From what i'm aware of, BAIN is similar to things like fomods and omods, in that it is a packaged assembly tool for the mod you are installing. I've worked a little with them a year or more ago and I think I remember them having a prepackaged installer wizard with them.

i was being rhetorical

probably should have put an /s