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The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion Game of the Year Edition (2009)
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The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion Game of the Year Edition (2009)

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deuceyd Jun 27, 2018 @ 5:50pm
Why do people say Oblivion is the worst TES game?
Since we have new people coming in I just wanna elaborate a little bit, why do you think Oblivion is either the worst TES game or if you think its the best in the series say why you think so.
Last edited by deuceyd; Jul 2, 2018 @ 10:11pm
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Originally posted by IvantheFormidable:
While I recognize that no one really asked for this, and it's a bit of a read, which is an understatement, I'll admit, I thought I'd elaborate on my thoughts about a few quotes. (There is a highly condensed version at the very end, for those short on time)

Mitya: "Roleplaying is supposed to be manifested in-game and not just limited to your brain, well at least in my opinion and at least if a game is to be considered a proper RPG."

Before starting, I do just want to defend Mitya's position. It is absolutely reasonable for a player to want high-quality writing, and a game world that actually responds to the player choices in a significant way. To want roleplaying to be "manifested in-game" and not simply in the mind of the person playing the game.

Personally, I compartmentalize cRPGs into two general groups.

The first group is comprised of games where the player picks up a more or less predefined character, and experience that character's journey. To ground this thought, some examples would be the Mass Effect or the Witcher games. The player is more than able to create their own version of each character, and their versions can drastically change the outcome of a story. The character's motivations, however, tend to be better defined than the next group.

The second group includes games that attempt to create a very open-ended experience where the player makes their own character that is more or less thrown into the game world without any fanfare. Prime examples of this design are TES III - V.

When given a game that fits into the second category, I see two options. The first is to choose to play the character as a blank slate where the only character motivations mirror those of the player. And there's nothing wrong with that, but often these folks are the "one and done" playthrough sorts of players. The second option, is for the player to consciously create a character with a unique background and motivations. And this is what I tend to opt for, as I often will make an outline (even have a word doc for it) of the character before I boot the game up. That way, I have something concrete to refer to. At the most basic level, it's putting the character's motivations first. And this is what, for me, can lead to unique playthroughs even in a game like Skyrim, where I might do the same quest over multiple playthroughs, but it seems exciting and different because each character approaches the issue from a different perspective. And this is where that roleplaying that might be all in my head enters into the game world, informing the character's actions.

And this, I think, is where some folks would look at my previous paragraph and think "wow, it sounds like you make things up to have fun in the game". And I can see their point, and even agree to an extent. But these self-created stories, in my view, are where Bethesda RPGs thrive. It's a sandbox.

And this transitions to my next point, which I'll start with this fantastic quote from Etain the She-Wolf:

"This REALLY puts things into perspective, in my opinion, of the different approaches to these games. I know many people who bought Skyrim, played it for forty or so hours straight, "beat" it, and then shelve it. I also know many people who are still playing Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim to this day with different playstyles and can't even comprehend the concept of "beating" it. "

Ever since Oblivion came out, and even more so with Skyrim, there has been an argument that the games have been dumbed down in order to generate a more mass appeal, which isn't incorrect, but one subsection of this argument is that the player can often finish nearly every quest in the game on a single playthrough. And this, I think, corresponds with Etain's experiences with people who play Oblivion or Skyrim with a single save, beat it by doing every quest they lay their eyes on, and then shelve the game. Again, I feel that I should say, there is nothing wrong with doing that. It's completely valid.

And this idea brings me to Deucey d's quote:

"Ivan repost that Rule Vs Role playing thing"

I cannot claim the rule vs role playing dichotomy is my own idea, as it was expounded in an article about roleplaying in Skyrim that I read years ago. In order to avoid unnecessary confusion, when I use the terms "role player" and "rule player" with a space between the two words, I am only refering to this very specific context, and I do not make any claim that either "role players" or "rule players" are superior, or that people that support one side or the other are wrong.

To distill the essence of the argument, it's that rule players are very focused, and happy, when the game's mechanics and rules restrict or allow certain things to work. For example, a rigid class system. Rule players thrive when these conditions are imposed by the game itself, but often struggle in their absence. Folks that fit this category, as an example, include people that will lament the fact that you can complete the questline for every single guild in Oblivion and Skyrim in a single playthrough, or that a non magic user can become the Arch-Mage. And I absolutely agree, it is extremely odd when the character is simultaneous the head of every major guild in the game's province.

However, on the other side, a role player might respond that there is no reason for the character to become the head of every guild. After all, in the mind of a role player, the only reason that a non-magic user become the Arch-Mage is because the player decided that their non-magic character should become the Arch-Mage. A role player, unlike a rule player, often thrives when restrictions are lifted from the player, and allow the player vast freedom in defining their character. Rather than relying on the game's rules, they construct their own rules. To make the game experience more enjoyable for themselves, they might add artificial constraints, but that they feel fall in line with the character.

To recycle my example from way earlier in this thread, one of my Skyrim characters thought that stripping the dead of their armor or clothes was disrespectful and distasteful. So when playing, I wouldn't take a fallen foe's armor or clothing, even if it was clearly the easier option at times. And this, in part, is why role players tend to enjoy and spend a lot of time with games like Oblivion and Skyrim. In contrast, rule player would typically complete the game and then move on, and look at those still playing the games with some confusion, given the lack of replayability in their eyes.

And the response to this whole rule and role players discussion, is of course the essence of the idea that Mitya brought up. Aren't we simply inventing and creating due to the game's own flaws and failures? To an extent, we are. The lack of real choices in later TES games means that the player often has a binary choice, either do the quest, or don't do the quest. And I think that branching quest paths and endings, especially guild questlines, are something that the Oblivion and Skyrim both sorely lack. I would personally love for more quests, as well as the ability to take a path where someone else becomes the head of the guild at the end of the story, or even that the guild leader remains the same. And I think that's a fairly widespread desire. Within 4 months of Skyrim being released, there was a mod that made Tolfdir the arch-mage instead of the player's character, which to date has over 30,000 downloads. And that's just one of several mods that do the same thing.

Oblivion and Skyrim had and have such expansive modding communities because the players that went into modding realised the vast and relatively untapped potential of the games. And they did so much with the mods that I can only hope that Bethesda learns from them.

To conclude, I think that while some, like myself, might have a lot of fun telling stories within the universe of TES, there are others that play the game through once and declare that they have beaten the game. I'm not going to assert that my view is correct and that their view is incorrect, but it seems that a fundamental difference divides those who complete Oblivion one time and see everything, and those that are still around playing it over a decade later. All this being said, I think that everyone can agree that just because we may greatly enjoy a game doesn't mean that the game doesn't have flaws, or that the formula cannot be improved. Bethesda can, and should, always strive for superior writing and quest design, as well as creating a vast and interesting world for the player to explore.


Short Version: I think that games that have the player take control of a character with virtually no background provide a rich opportunity for the player to tell a unique story, regardless of the limitations with the game's actual writing, and these stories are what draw me back to TES games time and time again. Is the player essentially inventing things and using their own imagination to supplement the game world? Absolutely, but that freedom to tell stories is fantastic, and that's where games like Oblivion and Skyrim shine, at least for me.

However, the lack of choices in latter TES games, typically resulting in a series of binary choices of either "do the quest" or "don't do the quest" is something that I think everyone can point to as needing change. Branching quest lines, as well as mutually exclusive decisions, in my eyes, are essential to the future of the series, as they will satisfy players of both the rule and role category.
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Showing 1-15 of 388 comments
deuceyd Jun 27, 2018 @ 6:25pm 
I see people saying it all the time, much more so than the other games which is why im curious.
Last edited by deuceyd; Jun 28, 2018 @ 2:51pm
#1
solidap Jun 27, 2018 @ 6:26pm 
They're trying to get internet cred by ♥♥♥♥ talking a game they never played before while praising another game they've never played before.

Oblivion is one of the best RPGs of all time
#2
deuceyd Jun 27, 2018 @ 6:38pm 
What about Morrowind
#3
UrkelLover2007 Jun 27, 2018 @ 7:12pm 
I tried Morrowwind, I'm a huge RPG guy but the combat is ♥♥♥♥♥♥ in that game. Essentially its like D and D. Based on your skill level the game calculates wether or not your attack will land. This makes the beggining of the game litterarlly ♥♥♥♥♥♥ because of the unresponsiveness and difficulty. Also, dont talk ♥♥♥♥ about Oblivon.
#4
deuceyd Jun 27, 2018 @ 7:17pm 
But doesn't it appeal more to an RPG, relying on character skill rather than player skill? Also doesn't it make sense to get better as you progress?

Btw I didn't talk swit about oblivion, i was just telling what ive heard others say,
#5
Kieldoozer Jun 27, 2018 @ 7:36pm 
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=greatest+game+of+all+time+oblivion
#6
deuceyd Jun 27, 2018 @ 7:42pm 
As if putting greatest+game+of+all+time+oblivion wouldn't result in some guy thinking oblivion is the best...
Last edited by deuceyd; Jul 1, 2018 @ 2:13pm
#7
BondageSpider Jun 27, 2018 @ 8:59pm 
Originally posted by solidap:
They're trying to get internet cred by ♥♥♥♥ talking a game they never played before while praising another game they've never played before.

Oblivion is one of the best RPGs of all time

This, pretty much. A lot of the trash talk is just forum trolls who want attention, or clickbait by YouTubers.

The game certainly has problems, but it's hard to rationalize it as being the worst in the Elder Scrolls series. The problems people complain about most were more pronounced in the games before or after, depending on which kind of problems you mean.
#8
Bansheebutt Jun 27, 2018 @ 9:06pm 
-The level scaling is over implemented.

-Melee is incredibly underpowered.

-Enemies get extremely bloated hp.

-The setting is a bit generic coming from Morrowind.

-The voice acting was very underwhelming because none of the actors seem to had been provided any context or characterization for their lines whatsoever; leading to flat, even toned performances throughout. (With the exception of Wes Johnson and Craig Sechler. Bless their wonderful voices and willingness to indulge in the cheese.)

-Tying into the previous point, Voice was distributed entirely by Race, leading to particularly goofy moments like The Killing Field, in which a very clearly Older Man has the exact same voice as both his sons, who are implied to be in their early twenties at the most.


A couple mods making minor edits to the gameplay grievences, and with my personal feeling that the generic setting and Renaissance Festival voice acting is part of the charm, and I think it's the best game Bethesda has released.
Last edited by Bansheebutt; Jun 27, 2018 @ 9:06pm
#9
deuceyd Jun 27, 2018 @ 9:12pm 
Originally posted by Bansheebot:
-The level scaling is over implemented.

-Melee is incredibly underpowered.

-Enemies get extremely bloated hp.

-The setting is a bit generic coming from Morrowind.

-The voice acting was very underwhelming because none of the actors seem to had been provided any context or characterization for their lines whatsoever; leading to flat, even toned performances throughout. (With the exception of Wes Johnson and Craig Sechler. Bless their wonderful voices and willingness to indulge in the cheese.)

-Tying into the previous point, Voice was distributed entirely by Race, leading to particularly goofy moments like The Killing Field, in which a very clearly Older Man has the exact same voice as both his sons, who are implied to be in their early twenties at the most.


A couple mods making minor edits to the gameplay grievences, and with my personal feeling that the generic setting and Renaissance Festival voice acting is part of the charm, and I think it's the best game Bethesda has released.
The fact you can point out some of the flaws and still call it the best game, I respect that sir.
#10
BondageSpider Jun 27, 2018 @ 9:14pm 
Originally posted by Bansheebot:
-The level scaling is over implemented.

-Melee is incredibly underpowered.

-Enemies get extremely bloated hp.

-The setting is a bit generic coming from Morrowind.

-The voice acting was very underwhelming because none of the actors seem to had been provided any context or characterization for their lines whatsoever; leading to flat, even toned performances throughout. (With the exception of Wes Johnson and Craig Sechler. Bless their wonderful voices and willingness to indulge in the cheese.)

-Tying into the previous point, Voice was distributed entirely by Race, leading to particularly goofy moments like The Killing Field, in which a very clearly Older Man has the exact same voice as both his sons, who are implied to be in their early twenties at the most.


A couple mods making minor edits to the gameplay grievences, and with my personal feeling that the generic setting and Renaissance Festival voice acting is part of the charm, and I think it's the best games Bethesda has released.

Agree with most of this, except about melee being underpowered, since I usually found the opposite to be true. I lost track of how many times I tried to make a ranged Marksman only or Destruction character practical, and ended up with "screw it, I'll just melee them again this time."

I can play Combat, Magic, and Stealth builds reasonably well now, but it took a lot of practice.

Granted, the level scaling makes everything feel underpowered past a certain point because enemies keep getting more health and damage long after your weapons and spells are maxed.
#11
Bansheebutt Jun 27, 2018 @ 9:34pm 
A Daedric Warhammer with max skill and strength does 28 damage, 98 with a standing power attack. That's also assuming no fatigue penalties (which you will have to deal with, thanks to the heavy weight.)

You can easily exceed that amount of DPS with Journeyman level Destruction, even without exploiting Magic/Elemental weaknesses (or inflicting a weakness via spell yourself.)

Admittedly, my frame of refrence for Melee being awful is a memory of my Level 25-30 Knight snapping their (tempered) ebony longsword in half after a fight with a *single* ogre.

If I was a Mage or even a powerful Alchemist, I could have killed that Ogre *a lot* faster with things I obtained at half the level.
Last edited by Bansheebutt; Jun 27, 2018 @ 9:40pm
#12
BondageSpider Jun 27, 2018 @ 11:06pm 
Thing is, it seems like no matter what I do, I always run out of Magicka too fast. I can make Restore Magicka potions with Alchemy to help this, but Restore Fatigue is much easier to make and has more common and cheaper ingredients. Once potions run out, all I can usually do with Journeyman level Destruction is waste all my Magicka casting a few spells they can easily dodge and that wouldn't be strong enough to kill them anyway, then sigh and use my sword.

Elemental enchanted weapons deliver damage quicker and easier than Destruction magic does and they're abundant at high level. Yeah, they're expensive to maintain, but you're rolling in dough by that point. I'd rather hit them with Chillrend or Rockshatter a few times than fumble with spells.

Also, encumbrance is Strength based, so for non-melee characters it's a constant nuisance.

Anyway, that's just my experience, you do you. At least this gives me ideas for my next run.
#13
Squidbob Spongepants Jun 28, 2018 @ 8:06am 
Whoever says Oblivion is the worst TES game needs to be exiled from this planet.

It's the best TES game, and as someone who started with Morrowind, I still think Oblivion did it better.
#14
deuceyd Jun 28, 2018 @ 8:19am 
Do you think its a better RPG though?
#15
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Date Posted: Jun 27, 2018 @ 5:50pm
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