Why is hand-to-hand so trash?

[Jimbusoid]

I am trying to make a hand to hand/mage build, and it has been pretty fun... when I use magic. I have my strength at 100 and my hand to hand skill at 100, but I only do 8-12 damage with each hit

I know i'm just using my hands and it would make sense for it to do ♥♥♥♥ damage, but come on. This is elder scrolls. isn't there supposed to be a balance?

[Equinoxinator]

Not with hand to hand

[Shiroi Ren]

Majority of weapons deal not much more damage actualy.

[Rithm Fluffderg]

If it bothers you that much, there are mods that fix that.

[The Flying Rodent]

Weapon damage in Oblivion in general is trash (compared to high-tier Poisons and Weakness + Damage spells that is), but this particularly the case with Hand to Hand.

http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Hand_to_Hand

The Max Damage you can expect to put out with Hand to Hand with 100 Strength/Skill is 11.5 (not including Power Attacks). Compare this to the One Handed Sword Umbra, which deals about 30 Damage with 100 Strength/Skill (not including power attacks). And then also consider that weapons can be Enchanted to deal additional damage, whereas fists can’t be.

So what are fists good for? One advantage that they have is that the player can still move while blocking, which means that it’s very easy to counterattack people that get staggered. They also Damage Fatigue, which lowers the Damage that enemies deal to you.

In general though, Hand to Hand is not powerful enough to deal with things like Goblin Warlords at High levels in a reasonable time frame, at least not without Mods. And to be frank, weapons aren’t very good at this either.

Stacking Weakness Spells on the other hand...

http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Spell_Making#Spell_Stacking

[Shiroi Ren]

Originally posted by The Flying Rodent:

Weapon damage in Oblivion in general is trash (compared to high-tier Poisons and Weakness + Damage spells that is), but this particularly the case with Hand to Hand.

H2H is only viable with high Speed. You can beat mediocre leveled enemies with ease at high levels. OFC it is all about 50% difficulty. At 100% difficulty everything aside magic is meh...

[The Flying Rodent]

I’m guessing by ‘High Speed’ you mean that it’s only effective if you can run quickly ? I can see how this would help with positioning , but not Damage. Only Strength/Skill/Fatigue Level effect that.

And pretty much everyone offensive skill is good for dispatching mediocre enemies at high levels, so I don’t see this as much as a positive either. I suppose you don’t have to ‘repair’ fists, which is something ...

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=873311868

Don’t forget Poisons , they’re good at 100% Difficulty as well. :)

[Rithm Fluffderg]

You can use any weapon while blocking, but the advantage fists have is if you hit an enemy who *is* blocking, you can still freely move around during your recoil animation, which allows you to dodge counter-attacks.

TBH, I think H2H sees more value in a modded game with uncapped skills, as that allows you to benefit from strength and H2H at higher values than 100.

Speaking of mods, the Nekhanimal's Awesome Vampire Mod requires decent Hand to Hand in order to use the Violent Feed power - it will fail to work if your H2H is too low.

That being said, there is one advantage that H2H has that weapons don't, other than "not requiring repair".

You can't be disarmed and watch your awesome weapon clip through the ground, disappearing forever.

Okay that's not really an advantage.

Generally speaking though, in Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim, if you're choosing a H2H playstyle, it's not because you want to be awesome, it's because you want to be stylish.

And H2H's fatigue damage in Oblivion can work pretty well when you remember that you can dance around an enemy until they exhaust most of their stamina and then punch them into a daze.

Really though, Daggerfall has the best hand-to-hand skill in the entire series because it doesn't have gimmicks, it's just straight up "rapid kung fu to wear down your enemies faster than you can say Cheese Please"

[Shiroi Ren]

Originally posted by The Flying Rodent:

I’m guessing by ‘High Speed’ you mean that it’s only effective if you can run quickly ? I can see how this would help with positioning , but not Damage. Only Strength/Skill/Fatigue Level effect that.

I meant that with High Speed you can inflict 0.3-0.4 hits more in general. The funny thing about H2H is that I usualy KOed enemies instead of killing them.

[The Flying Rodent]

Originally posted by HeroicSkaldZach:

You can use any weapon while blocking, but the advantage fists have is if you hit an enemy who *is* blocking, you can still freely move around during your recoil animation, which allows you to dodge counter-attacks.

Right, I misinterpreted that. That makes sense. :)

Originally posted by Shiroi Ren:

Originally posted by The Flying Rodent:

I’m guessing by ‘High Speed’ you mean that it’s only effective if you can run quickly ? I can see how this would help with positioning , but not Damage. Only Strength/Skill/Fatigue Level effect that.

I meant that with High Speed you can inflict 0.3-0.4 hits more in general. The funny thing about H2H is that I usualy KOed enemies instead of killing them.

As in you hit quickly? That's true, and that's generally been a strong point of Hand to Hand in Morrowind and Oblivion: Lots of quick hits that stagger your opponent. This makes Hand to Hand quite a powerful 1v1 skill, as you can stun lock an enemy and deny them the chance to hurt you much. However the low damage means that when fighting more than 1 opponent at the same time, things become increasingly difficult.

[Rithm Fluffderg]

Actually, once you get Hand-to-Hand high enough in Morrowind, you can actually safely take on around three opponents at once because they'll be spending so much time eating dirt that you can freely pound on them - and when they *do* get up, their lack of fatigue means they have an extra 25% chance to miss you.

in Oblivion, it doesn't hurt to remember that enemies will gladly whiff at you if your speed is high enough that you can stay just out of their attacking range... which means they're wasting fatigue, which means you can knock them on their butt and pound them while they struggle to get up.

Somewhat related rant, I hate how every game before Skyrim calls it "fatigue". Fatigue is what you have when you *lack* stamina. If anything, if you call it fatigue, then it should be *filling up* when you get more tired. Just call it stamina.

[Johnny Casey]

The biggest benefit that HtH has is 'fun'.
I just love to beat the crap out of all the guards while they scream BURGARH!!

Magic > Marksman > HtH > Blade and Blunt

[Johnny Casey]

Originally posted by Iron Tarkus:

This is elder scrolls. isn't there supposed to be a balance?

I cannot believe what I just saw.

You think TES games are balanced?

[jovalleau]

One of my earliest characters was an Orc Brawler who wore heavy armor and fought only using hand-to-hand. It ended up actually being a lot of fun, once survivability is improved via enchanting.

Starting Block at 25 is a MUST.

Going toe-to-toe with dremora, daedroth, ogres, and minotars is a lot of fun!

[Rithm Fluffderg]

Block doesn't do anything when blocking H2H.

Only H2H does anything for H2H, including blocking.

At 50 H2H, enemies will recoil when you block their attacks.
At 75 H2H, enemies may get knocked down when you block
At 100 H2H, enemies may get disarmed when you block

However, at no point will you actually reduce any damage dealt to you by blocking - ergo, the blocking skill is actually completely useless for a H2H character.

EDIT: Also, Fortify Fatigue by 200 points will increase H2H damage, allowing you to hit a max of 15 damage per punch.

[Johnny Casey]

Originally posted by HeroicSkaldZach:

Block doesn't do anything when blocking H2H.

Only H2H does anything for H2H, including blocking.

At 50 H2H, enemies will recoil when you block their attacks.
At 75 H2H, enemies may get knocked down when you block
At 100 H2H, enemies may get disarmed when you block

However, at no point will you actually reduce any damage dealt to you by blocking - ergo, the blocking skill is actually completely useless for a H2H character.

Okay, block doesn't do anything with hand to hand.
But if you block any attack with bare hand, your block skill will increase.

What kind of nonsense is this?