Bashed Patch and Leveled Lists

[MacDougall]

Hey guys I have a question regarding bashed patch from wrye bash and leveled lists. I would like to use the mod Oblivion Scaling Unclusterf**ked but I'm unclear if I should just let wrye bash automatically merge all the leveled lists or if I should omit some? Looking in TES4Edit after letting wrye bash automatically handle it it looks like a lot of the entries from OSU have been overwritten. Really appreciate any help.

[Leeux]

The Bashed Patch process just reads the entries inside the leveled items/creatures records and builds a new override record with the union of all changes.

Say the base master has a LL like this:

A,B,C where each ABC are items/creatures w/e

The comes mod 1 and edits that same LL record adding an entry:
Mod1 => A,B,C,X where X is the new item

Then mod 2 also edits same LL record:

Mod2 => A,B,C,Y,Z

If you were to not use a bashed patch, you'd get whatever result happens for the mod that loads last, but what bashed patch does is, reads Mod1 and notes X, reads Mod2 and notes new Y,Z and produces:

BP => A,B,C,X,Y,Z

All of those mod plugin files above override the same record, the last one wins, and the BP happens to be the last one (or so it's recommended, except in certain specific cases)

It gets messy when mods remove items from LLs, but the process it's pretty well explained in the Advanced Readme that comes with WB itself, or that you can read online here[wrye-bash.github.io]

In summary, if you want OSU to overrule rule other additions/changes you can tag it as Relev/Delev and rebuild the bashed patch.

((Most overhauls that touch LLs need to be Relev at least, and probably Delev too))

[MacDougall]

Hey thanks for the thorough response! That was very informative. It looks like OSU is already tagged with delev and relev. The mods that wrye bash has listed under LL for me are:

Unofficial Oblivion Patch (ADR)
Unofficial Shivering Isles Patch. (ADR)
DLCMehrunesRazor - Unofficial Patch (ADR)
DLCSpellTomes (AR)
DLCThievesDen (ADR)
Oblivion Scaling Unclusterf**ked (ADR)

I've been testing the mod out in game, and it seems like the only way to get OSU to work as intended is to load it after the bashed patch. Even if OSU is the only one under leveled lists in the Bashed Patch bandits will have some glass and daedric armor/weapons (which OSU prevents). Would it be unadvisable to load it after the bashed patch? Unfortunately the author of OSU seems to have abandoned the mod. Maybe I will have to live without it or try out another level scaling mod.

[Leeux]

Keep in mind that whenever you install an overhaul into an in progress game, you need to wait for respawn time... as in, you have to wait for at least 3 or 4 in game days so the creatures already spawned can despawn and get replaced by newly spawned ones.

EDIT: I mean, the fact that the bandits are already spawned from before you installed the overhaul, for example... would lead to them being still present in the game and with all the equipment they had on them when they were generated (as they're present in your save game) and that's even if the overhaul changes them... that's why you need to purge them from the spawns so the new creatures that spawn are already compliant with the changes introduced by the mod.

If you chose to do so, go to the Testing Hall (coc TestingHall) and wait there for more than 3 in-game days and then go back to Tamriel using: coc Weye, for example and from there you can fast travel to where you were before.

Also, you'd probably need to use the Relevel NPCs command from Wrye Bash, but that's only needed if/when the overhaul changes stats for persistent NPCs like guards, and such.

I'm not familiar with the overhaul you're running so I can't say if that's in fact needed or not.

[MacDougall]

I was just using the console to spawn bandits (player.placeatme), is that a valid way to test it? Once I put OSU below the bashed patch, it seemed like there was a big difference in the equipment they were using.

Now I am looking through TES4Edit and it looks like even though OSU is tagged as both delev and relev, the bashed patch is using some entries from UOP. In some spots it looks like it's even making a decision on which things to change when there are conflicts. It think it's using what is closer to the original Oblivion entry when UOP and OSU both conflict. If you have any experience with TES4Edit, could I ask you if UOP has added a leveled list entry but it is blank under bashed patch, does that mean it won't be in the game? Thanks again for the help, really appreciate it.

[Leeux]

Do you have any examples of things you saw that you think it could be problems?

PlaceAtMe from the console should work IIRC, but just to make sure there are no caching involved, always do it after loading a save and don't save the result... my thinking is, perhaps the game optimizes the produced NPC record as it stores it in your saved game, and if you repeat the PlaceAtMe, it might not re-eval all the LLs involved and just spawn a clone of the one already created... perhaps, I'm not sure and I don't know exactly how it works.

Anyways, I'm looking at the plugins in TES4Edit right now and I haven't seen any cases of stuff that could be wrong... but, my install doesn't allow me to use OSU so I can't rebuild the my bashed patch to test correctly, as I'd have to create a separate install just to test this.

As for your last question, I don't understand exactly what it means, but I can tell you just in case it matters that the Bashed Patch will delete LLs that contain no items at the end of the merge process, to save resources in game... but since they are empty, they would be useless even if they'd have stayed... is that what you meant?

What I'm seeing is lots of cases where the OSU undoes important fixes from the UOP, so... if I were you and I wanted to be sure that everything in the game is as perfect as it could be, I'd be taking the time to create a manual patch to fix those cases... but sadly the only way to attack this is on a case by case basis, and trying to make sense of the changes and realizing what is important and what doesn't.

In the cases where UOP removes an item from a LLs, for example, and OSU re-adds it, it's probably safer to let the remove go ahead, since there should be a good reason to the removal in the first place.

If, OTOH the UOP adds and item, it's probably an omission from the base game and probably, the item should allow to stay, unless it fall withing the realm of items OSU would restrict, like Daedric/Glass/Ebony/etc.

I've seen examples of both cases in my overlooking of the conflicts, atm.

Also, there are cases where the UOP adds stuff to NPCs that were missing in the base game, that also should be allowed to pass and in some cases affects the NPC behaviour (like, some cases where NPCs that were supposed to be casters hadn't had a spell list assigned to begin with)

There are a lot of rebalancing of persistent "named" NPCs, so for those you'd need to run the Relevel NPCs option in WB.

There are some flags changes that conflict between USO and UOP, and in some cases the changes from UOP are important to allow to pass, but there is no merging options for those, so that would require a manual patch and handling on a case by case basis, at least for the NPCs that are named.

I'd pay special attention to UOP's adding of "No Low Level processing" to persistent NPCs since UOP must have patched those for a reason, and make sure those flag changes are allowed to pass, maybe by making a new manual patch and copying those by hand.

And in this case last plugin load will win, since both UOP's and USO's are both tagged with "Actors.ACBS".

Changes to factions and AI packages should be able to be picked up automatically, since UOP is tagged for those but OSU is not... be sure to have the proper sections enabled in the Bashed Patch process, though.

There is not much more that I can say without being able to actually create the Bashed Patch myself to see how it ends up as result, sadly.

[MacDougall]

Hey thanks for taking the time to help me out! Really appreciate it! I think I will go ahead and try to make a patch. Might take some time but maybe I can put it on nexus for others who want to use OSU with the unofficial patches.

What I was wondering is if for example UOP adds an entry to a leveled list, but that entry doesn't show up in bashed patch, will it be in the game? Like UOP has under LLONPCArmorHeavyShieldLvl100 a dwarven shield. It is also in the base game. But then under OSU and bashed patch that entry is blank. Does that mean bashed patch recognized that USO wanted that entry removed and it won't be in the game? Sorry I'm having trouble explaining it.

I think the problem I've been noticing in game is if I don't put OSU after bashed patch in my load order is that UOP has added entries like EnchGlassCuirassFortMercantile "Blower's Cuirass" [ARMO:000A577F] probably since they were things that should have been in the vanilla game and bashed patch will keep entries like that to resolve conflicts maybe? However like you said this is something OSU would want to restrict from the game. Is there a way in my patch that I can make sure things like that won't carry over to the bashed patch?

Also I'm not seeing a relevel NPC option in wrye bash though. Would that be Actors.Stats or maybe Stats tag?

[Leeux]

Sorry is not Relevel NPCs, it's Update NPC levels... and it is a command you can run from the Saves tab... select a save game there, and right-click on it to show the context menu, and there should be an option called "Update NPC Levels."

It modifies the save, so it is best advised to make a backup first, just in case... you can do a backup either by hand (don't forget to copy the associated .obse file too!) or with Wrye Bash, again... context menu and choose File->Backup.

As for your other questions:

w.r.t LLONPCArmorHeavyShieldLvl100, yeah that means that Bashed Patch saw that OSU removes the entry and since it's tagged as Delev it trumps other modifications by any other plugins.

as for the other item, EnchGlassCuirassFortMercantile, that's a tricky question... in theory the Bashed Patch *should* override that addition and take into account what the last loaded plugin does if it's marked as Delev (in this case it does) but it could be that there's some oversight or some bug in the code, and it counts UOP additions as overriding the removals from OSU, which in truth, they aren't true removals since those records weren't there in the original master so there's no way for OSU to explicitly specify that there should not be those records there, as Delev tag is implied to do... i.e. the Delev tag is implied to only count actual real entry removals, and not count whatever other mods do along the chain.

Best route it would be to add those cases as requiring manual patching and include them in your compatibility patch, IMO. That way you get to control what stays and what goes away...

In summary yes, what it matters is what the last mod to the right of the conflict pane does... in terms of what you see in TES4Edit... so if the entry is clear there, it means that it won't be in game... but be wary of order, sometimes entries are produced in different order as their masters and they might not show in the same spot, which lead to you thinking it's removed when in fact it could still be there, just down below or something...

BTW, which kind of Bashed Patch are you generating, the Python-based one? Or the CBash based one? The resulting patch could have differences depending on which one you're using... the CBash one is marked as Beta for a reason, and that's because it was never fully implemented to respect and reproduce the intended behaviour of several corner cases... if you're using that one, maybe this one is one of such corner cases.

TBH I can't see why you still have Bandits in the wrong gear having the bashed patch loading after OSU... I mean, many of us are running overhauls and been running it for ages and Bashed Patch is an important part of many of our load orders... Oscuro's Overhaul does ~approx. the same stuff as OSU does with LLs (but ofc. it also adds many other things that many people don't want) and it also had been not kept up to date with UOP's changes for a long time in the past, and never seen any such issues reported before... so it's strange and it'd be great to know what it's causing it :/

Perhaps I will need to install a second/third copy of Oblivion and check it myself... it looks like an important issue, specially because I've seen it mentioned in the OSU's nexus comment section too, and I can't see what's wrong without making the actual bashed patch :(

[MacDougall]

Hey, well I made the patch, hopefully I covered everything, I think I was pretty thorough. I realized the reason USO wasn't removing those LL entries created UOP was because USO would need UOP to be a master, so I just made UOP a master in my patch and deleveled those entries. I believe the glass/daedric armor I was noticing in game before was specifically from these entries added by UOP. Sorry, I wasn't very clear about that in my earlier post.

For some reason though, for the life of me I can't get bashed patch to recognize certain things I added in my patch that UOP had changed but wouldn't carry over to the bashed patch. One was MSWraighSpectralSailor. UOP has added a responsibility of 10 to it. But even if I put that in my patch and tag my patch with AI Data it won't seem to carry over to the bashed patch. Another thing UOP changed was the text Record Header->Record Flags->Quest Item/Persistent Reference in the NPC section. UOP changed it for some NPCs from "Quest Item/Persistent Reference" to "Compressed" or vice versa. I don't know what these mean, but I figured they were probably important so I tried to put them in my patch but no matter what tags I try they won't seem to carry over to bashed patch.

You were right though, I was using CBash, a few of the mods I use instructed me to use it. But after switching to a python patch it seems like everything has the same results, for the most part at least.

Thanks a ton though for all the help, I definitely couldn't have done it without you. I will try testing my patch in game now to make sure it all looks right. If it all looks alright I think I will put it on nexus for others to use.

Edit: I think the patch is working. Every NPC I spawn or encounter seems like they are using the gear from OSU. If you have the time, would you mind looking through my patch in TES4Edit to see if everything I did seems sensible? I definitely can't expect you to though, you have already helped me out a lot. I used the Tags "Actors.ACBS", "Actors.DeathItem", "Delev" and "Stats". I also had to add "Stats to the OSU esp, it wasn't on there when I installed it. Figured it would be nice if someone with more experience looked it over before I share it with people on Nexus in case I break their install haha, but no worries if you don't have the time.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rpnek7w9RMSgOKlTyv7tcgHl-kGwgRYQ/view?usp=sharing

[Leeux]

Just finished a long day of raiding :) Gonna give a look, but tomorrow when I wake up after sleep!

[Leeux]

Hey, I checked the patch and it's looking good! The only think I thought I should mention is that you missed some side UOP changes to NPCs... that I'd think it'd be important to include in your patch.

Specifically, some NPCs have an specific types of eyes assigned, instead of having their eyes field set to blank, which in turn causes Bash to assign a random type of eye to them on bashing.

UOP is not tagged with Eyes by default, so the bashed patch won't normally propagate those changes.

There are some specific changes to NPCs related to Hackdirt that you didn't include, like some NPCs seemed to be missing the Hackdirt hey from their inventory, and the UOP added it... and since OSU is tagged as Invent it will override that addition by itself... or at least I think it should, as I said, I can't see the produced Bashed Patch myself, sadly.

Same applies to Imperial Forresters that seemed to be missing his Cuirass and UOP added it to his inventory.

Also think about adding default needed tags to your mod's description so people don't depend on Loot, or Boss or whatever they use to sort mods.

The tags needed should be a subset of the ones already in place for USO but they ultimately will depend on the content you add, I'd go with Relev,Delev,Actors.ACBS,Actors.DeathItem,Actors.Stats as start, but if you include inventory changes, you'd have to include the tag and make sure you merge the inventories by hand into your patch. Same for other record types.

In the end I might have overlooked something, but that's all I could see and none of that is critical IMO.

Good work and nice effort! And congrats on your first compat patch, if it is indeed your first one :)

Good luck :)

[MacDougall]

Really appreciate it! I tweaked a few more things I missed and fixed some of the things you mentioned, I think it's all looking good now. I'll post the link on the OSU nexus page for others. I suppose I should stop modding and actually play the game now haha. Thanks again! Would have been totally lost without your advice!

[MacDougall]

Hey sorry could I actually ask you one more quick question? Not sure if you use the official DLC, but if you do would you recommend cleaning them with TES4Edit? Looking online some people recommend it and others don't.

[Leeux]

Hey, you're welcome! Glad I could be of some help, but big props to you for tackling this... I'm sure many OSU users will be happy, going by some of the comments I saw on Nexus at least :)

And, w.r.t cleaning DLCs: Yeah! I personally always cleaned them since we got the ability to do that :)

It's specially important to also do the Undelete and Disable References thing to them, since many of them are filled with those, IIRC.

Tbh I don't know why anyone would say to not do it, since on one hand, identical to master records (the ones removed on cleaning) are only needed for purposely reverting things back to vanilla, and that's only useful on plugins that load late in the "standard" load order (at least "standard" by BOSS sorting at least) and most DLC do not load late.

And there is no reason that I know of that could justify leaving Deleted references in plugins, when in fact is a known cause of the crash on exit bug Oblivion has... not the only cause, mind you, but one of the easily reproducible ones, or at least AFAICR from old testings.

Just remember to be careful and do one at a time while only loading into TES4Edit that one single plugin and no others.

Also, always do a backup of the original ones for safekeeping first!

[MacDougall]

Alright went ahead and cleaned them! Think I have everything the way I want it now, I've been running around and everything seems stable! Can't thank you enough for all the help!