The removal of medium armor and spears...

[Shadowdrake]

I'd like to get some opinions on the removal of medium armor and spears. In my opinion it was an absolutely retarded decision and all it did was let the devs be lazier than they were for Morrowind as well as make oblivion much less diverse for the fans. This is one of the reasons why Morrowind, while it probably isn't the best of the 3, remains my favorite of the 3.

[Rithm Fluffderg]

The removal of medium armor was a pain for creative flexibility, I'll agree.

Spears... eh... Morrowind was the only game that had spears anyways and I feel like it didn't even do them justice.

But it would've been nice to have them at least.

[Dubba_D]

I actually thought the removal of medium armor was for the better: Better to differentiate the armors between them than muddying the waters with another skill.

I'd actually prefer to see heavy and light become merged into a singular "Armor" skill, and work of not the weight, but rather the construction, design, and materials of different armors, ie chainmail, plate, leather, etc. Of course, such a system would require good execution on Bethesda's part, as well as compensating with another skill, such as athletics, or unarmed.

Spears, and polearms in general, should make a comeback under "Two-handed" (I'd prefer the distinction between light/heavy, but semantics >.>).

[Shadowdrake]

Originally posted by Dubba_D:

I actually thought the removal of medium armor was for the better: Better to differentiate the armors between them than muddying the waters with another skill.

I'd actually prefer to see heavy and light become merged into a singular "Armor" skill, and work of not the weight, but rather the construction, design, and materials of different armors, ie chainmail, plate, leather, etc. Of course, such a system would require good execution on Bethesda's part, as well as compensating with another skill, such as athletics, or unarmed.

Spears, and polearms in general, should make a comeback under "Two-handed" (I'd prefer the distinction between light/heavy, but semantics >.>).

Well, it wasn't as much a problem of the removal of the skill, but the removal of the armor. Armor like bonemold and dreugh and etc. was some of the coolest looking in the game.

Your idea sounds really cool, idk if bethesda is smart enough for that tho. The way elder scrolls is going it sounds like theres gonna be three different skills in the next tes game XD.

[SnickerToodles]

I suppose they hadn't come up with one-handed and two-handed yet (even that distinction didn't make much sense to me; a skilled sword artist can't just pick a mace or war axe and be OK...). Spears aren't really blade or blunt, nor are throwing stars, etc...

I think they were at an impasse. Morrowind was ridiculous for having 10 different weapon classes. But on the other hand, Skyrim over-simplified it. There's no real solution here, except I guess for having sub-classes or something.

[Rithm Fluffderg]

Originally posted by Shadowdrake:

Originally posted by Dubba_D:

I actually thought the removal of medium armor was for the better: Better to differentiate the armors between them than muddying the waters with another skill.

I'd actually prefer to see heavy and light become merged into a singular "Armor" skill, and work of not the weight, but rather the construction, design, and materials of different armors, ie chainmail, plate, leather, etc. Of course, such a system would require good execution on Bethesda's part, as well as compensating with another skill, such as athletics, or unarmed.

Spears, and polearms in general, should make a comeback under "Two-handed" (I'd prefer the distinction between light/heavy, but semantics >.>).

Well, it wasn't as much a problem of the removal of the skill, but the removal of the armor. Armor like bonemold and dreugh and etc. was some of the coolest looking in the game.

Your idea sounds really cool, idk if bethesda is smart enough for that tho. The way elder scrolls is going it sounds like theres gonna be three different skills in the next tes game XD.

Removing that armor had more to do with region than skills. Bonemold could've easily been made Heavy Armor, Dreugh light, etc. but the fact of the matter is, the creatures they're made from are native, pretty exclusively, to Morrowind, and is such a cultural identifier for them that they probably just don't export it. Ever.

[Bansheebutt]

Originally posted by Dubba_D:

I'd actually prefer to see heavy and light become merged into a singular "Armor" skill, and work of not the weight, but rather the construction, design, and materials of different armors, ie chainmail, plate, leather, etc.

Based on Fallout 4, we're likely to see a similar system to this in VI, and I don't mean that in an explicitly negative way, because I can see it working out.

We'll have the Armor skill along with Light, Sturdy, and Heavy variants of each armor piece with Perks being used to specialize with certain weight classes of armor.

Material classification like steel and leather will just be Tier indications. You could have Light Iron, Heavy Glass, or medium Leather.

Where Bethesda can (and probably will) go wrong with that system is if by "Specializing with perks" they mean "You have +20% higher Armor Rating with Light Armor pieces."
An incredibly underwhelming use for a perk system they've applied for three games now.

[Shadowdrake]

Originally posted by PaladinZachski:

Originally posted by Shadowdrake:

Well, it wasn't as much a problem of the removal of the skill, but the removal of the armor. Armor like bonemold and dreugh and etc. was some of the coolest looking in the game.

Your idea sounds really cool, idk if bethesda is smart enough for that tho. The way elder scrolls is going it sounds like theres gonna be three different skills in the next tes game XD.

Removing that armor had more to do with region than skills. Bonemold could've easily been made Heavy Armor, Dreugh light, etc. but the fact of the matter is, the creatures they're made from are native, pretty exclusively, to Morrowind, and is such a cultural identifier for them that they probably just don't export it. Ever.

Well theres the thing of imperial armor too. There was more classifications of imperial armor in morrowind, some being light, some medium, and some heavy, than there is in cyrodil, home of the imperials lol! Skyrim fixed that though, among other things. Having medium armor just gave more diversity, whether or not its actually labeled "medium armor"

[Dubba_D]

Originally posted by Bansheebot:

Originally posted by Dubba_D:

I'd actually prefer to see heavy and light become merged into a singular "Armor" skill, and work of not the weight, but rather the construction, design, and materials of different armors, ie chainmail, plate, leather, etc.

Based on Fallout 4, we're likely to see a similar system to this in VI, and I don't mean that in an explicitly negative way, because I can see it working out.

We'll have the Armor skill along with Light, Sturdy, and Heavy variants of each armor piece with Perks being used to specialize with certain weight classes of armor.

Material classification like steel and leather will just be Tier indications. You could have Light Iron, Heavy Glass, or medium Leather.

Where Bethesda can (and probably will) go wrong with that system is if by "Specializing with perks" they mean "You have +20% higher Armor Rating with Light Armor pieces."
An incredibly underwhelming use for a perk system they've applied for three games now.

And on top of those different armors, there could be different resistances, much like what FO4 did, but to a greater extent.
Say, you've your physical resistances: Piercing, Slashing, and Crushing. Then you have your magical/natual resistances: Fire, Frost, Lightning, Arcane, Poison, and Disease. Different materials and designs could be combined to account for different forms of damage, and perks could be specialized to enhance and/or minigate resistances/weaknesses.
There's a lot we can work with, but again, that would be up to either Bethesda or a fan-game/mod, which I would love.

[Rithm Fluffderg]

Standardizing the armor types could work as long as there's hardcoded advantages/disadvantages based off of weight.

Example: Wearing gauntlets just flat-out adds damage based off of weight to your attacks regardless of perks (with perks increasing the amount of damage), but it reduces the damage of archery and reduces your ability to lockpick, pickpocket, or do anything that requires fine motor skills. It also protects you from damage taken by punching things that would obviously hurt to touch (like, say, flame atronachs)

The weight of boots reduces your walking/running speed more dramatically than any other armor type, but the armor class of the boots reduces environmental damage you take from the ground (like burning ground or toxic water)

Heavier helmets limit your ability to cast spells, but reduce the damage of critical hits more based off of AC.

Heavier body armor makes you harder to stagger, but reduces your maneuverability. Lighter body armor is quieter, too.

Instead of dividing things strictly into "heavy armor, medium armor, light armor", you could have armor across the entire spectrum of the AC to Weight ratio. The player could, then, specialize by taking perks that work better with less weight or more weight.

Like, say, a perk that allows you to knock over enemies by sprinting at them would be far less effective if you were wearing lighter armor. The perk would still function, but it might only work on enemies that are significantly lighter than you. It would almost always work against most enemies with the heaviest armor. And of course, the entire spectrum in between.

it would also allow the player to mix and match armor types rather than having to stick to one type for the sake of efficiency. A martial artist could take perks that reward having heavy gauntlets (under a hand to hand tree, of course) while wearing otherwise lighter armor to maximize mobility.

Mages could take perks that are highly penalized by weight, while Sorcerers could eventually learn to reduce their penalty for casting spells with heavy helmets to a significant decree.

I imagine that the perk tree for armor could even be broken up into several pieces, one for each type of armor.

[Shadowdrake]

Originally posted by PaladinZachski:

Standardizing the armor types could work as long as there's hardcoded advantages/disadvantages based off of weight.

Example: Wearing gauntlets just flat-out adds damage based off of weight to your attacks regardless of perks (with perks increasing the amount of damage), but it reduces the damage of archery and reduces your ability to lockpick, pickpocket, or do anything that requires fine motor skills. It also protects you from damage taken by punching things that would obviously hurt to touch (like, say, flame atronachs)

The weight of boots reduces your walking/running speed more dramatically than any other armor type, but the armor class of the boots reduces environmental damage you take from the ground (like burning ground or toxic water)

Heavier helmets limit your ability to cast spells, but reduce the damage of critical hits more based off of AC.

Heavier body armor makes you harder to stagger, but reduces your maneuverability. Lighter body armor is quieter, too.

Instead of dividing things strictly into "heavy armor, medium armor, light armor", you could have armor across the entire spectrum of the AC to Weight ratio. The player could, then, specialize by taking perks that work better with less weight or more weight.

Like, say, a perk that allows you to knock over enemies by sprinting at them would be far less effective if you were wearing lighter armor. The perk would still function, but it might only work on enemies that are significantly lighter than you. It would almost always work against most enemies with the heaviest armor. And of course, the entire spectrum in between.

it would also allow the player to mix and match armor types rather than having to stick to one type for the sake of efficiency. A martial artist could take perks that reward having heavy gauntlets (under a hand to hand tree, of course) while wearing otherwise lighter armor to maximize mobility.

Mages could take perks that are highly penalized by weight, while Sorcerers could eventually learn to reduce their penalty for casting spells with heavy helmets to a significant decree.

I imagine that the perk tree for armor could even be broken up into several pieces, one for each type of armor.

well, damn. XD

[Rithm Fluffderg]

Actually, I wonder if there's a way to mod Skyrim to work like the way I just described.

[Bansheebutt]

I know the Armor-weight knockdown-dash is part of a mod. Probably Requim.

I'm sure boots reducing environmental damage would be a simple modification via script, but the problem is there's not a huge amount of ground-based environment damage in the game anyway.

[Rithm Fluffderg]

Originally posted by Bansheebot:

I know the Armor-weight knockdown-dash is part of a mod. Probably Requim.

I'm sure boots reducing environmental damage would be a simple modification via script, but the problem is there's not a huge amount of ground-based environment damage in the game anyway.

It was mostly because I couldn't think of a better benefit that would still be thematically appropriate.

[hulmey676]

I can't really say much as I haven't played much of morrowind but the bringing back of spears would be good :)

[-]

After playing Path of Exile, it's going to be rough going back to a game that doesn't factor in elemental / status resistances haha

Oblivion with PoE crafting and player sheet mechanics would be 10 / 10


** Not saying Oblivion needs to be changed. It's still my first Rpg, really like this game