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I totally agree, nobody has ever made a game like Bethesda, and Bethesda simply doesn't have any competition on the market. That's unfortunate for us, BUT the thing is it seems like Bethesda themselves don't know the reason why their games are (were?) so unique.
As for John Carmack, I bet he was like "Omg, what the hell is this. I need to rewrite this whole mess, and then we can talk." But then he was like "Meh... I better go and build my rockets instead to build UAC bases on the Mars. BB loosers." :>
About Bethesda's level of detail and interactivity vs lifeless worlds of CDPR/Bioware/Whatever. The thing is GTA5/RDR (I hope you understand why I chose these games for this example) show us that we can have the best of two worlds already. This is a speculation but I bet if Rockstar made "The Elder Scrolls" game using their already existing tech, that would be the last game we would ever need to buy (since it would be "the best game ever"). The problem is that they will never do it and CDPR/Bioware/everybody else do not understand what makes Bethesda games so special.
Why do I think they don't understand it? Because 99% of Skyrim players call Skyrim a good RPG. The real reason why these games are so damn good though is because they are awesome immersive sims. People want a damn fine immersive sim combined with best elements of rpgs and a good physics engine. Until they realize that, they will keep demanding "RPG like Skyrim" and guys from CDPR/whatever will keep making superb RPGs, far better than Skyrim, without realizing that people actually want an open world immersive sim.
In fact I believe that if CDPR realized that, they could make a game better than TES games as well. Well... Minus the TES lore. I think TES has the most interesting lore out of any fantasy world (yes, including LOTR and stuff). That said Bethesda keeps butchering it for no good reason.
As for story, writing and exploration... They are really bad indeed. I don't know much about Fallout 4 since I haven't played it much because I didn't like it at all, so I can't comment on that.
Don't get confused by words immersion and simulation. I am talking about a very niche genre here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immersive_sim
There is a very specific reason why most people mix it with RPG, and why there is no better (worse) alternatives to Bethesda games.
I would consider GTA a lifeless world, but cleverly hidden. The thing that brings life to a world is characters, but in the case of all these other open world games, the plot-essential characters are hidden from the actual game world, only coming out at specific scripting moments.
Where as in Morrowind (and to a lesser extent, Oblivion, Skyrim and the Fallout games) the Plot critical NPCs "Exist" in the world, follow (mostly) the same rules, and in the case of Morrowind and any (Good) modded Skyrim/Oblivion, can be killed.
I would rate CDRED's game lower, in living worlds, because even the basic copy-past NPC's are nothing more than looping animation props you can't interact with in any way. In GTA/RDR, at least the NPCs can be interacted with, usually in the form of headshots.
The next step above GTA would be Fable (The original, and only good one). Fable's NPC's don't get as much praise as they should. If you can divorce yourself from the Molyneux effect, Fable is a technical masterpiece in at least that one area.
Absolutely true. There is one small detail I should add about GTA/RDR. I believe that on top of cleverly hidden lifeless world (as you cleverly pointed out) there is no reason why it couldn't be mixed with parts of "really existing" environments, npcs, etc. I think Rockstar has a REALLY good tech on their hands, that could afford to have best of two worlds performance wise. So in the end we'd get a cleverly hidden lifeless parts of the world where it needs to be done (eg the College of Winterhold just to be more specific), and actual world full of life, details, and all good stuff that makes Bethesda games good. This is why I mentioned GTA/RDR in first place.
It obviously will not happen, but in a "what if" scenario I think that "ideal" TES game could be done today with today's existing techonologies.
P.S. Btw, Fable is a crazy good, silly and fun game. :)
P.P.S. I recalled an interesting fact about an Imperial City that started this discussion. Did you know that if you turn off (read delete) face animations in Oblivion, it would at least double (and I mean double, not exaggerating) your framerate in the Imperial City when npcs walk outside during rush hours? Just saying.
i prefer it to morrowind but morrowind is just so replayable for me i can't stop playing it, plus there are no race mods for daggerfall so yeah lol.
There is time passed since I opened the thread, and what have I to report? I started toplay Daggerfall. I got into this game, and this game is just GREAT
1) I havent seen neither beast races, no mer in the game. Just enemy orcs in dungeons. The cities all filled with humans (Bretons and occasionally Redguards) It makes the game feel more "mature".
2) in Daggerfall you can forget about Fighters and Mages Guild. There are soooo many factions, most of them Temples and Knight Orders, so there is plenty to do. Each Tamriel God has a Temple and many quests. Knights Orders i found so far are at least 10. But for traditionalists there is everything as well: Fighter/Mages Guild, Dark Brotherhood, Thieves Guild etc
3) There are many things that are cut out in later games. You can learn languages (every language is Skill. If you kill orcs, you learn Orcish, if kill Harpies you learn Harpian. Do them your major Skills, and raise your level being polyglote :D
Also climbing is a skill that is not presented in later game
Streetknowledge is a skill. Dont know what it affects though
4) Buy a cart and you can bring everywhere 750 kg additional loot with you. Nice for bringing junk from dungeons. If you want to sell it, go to a store and select your wagon in selling menu. Click Click Click all things away to have your money in return
5) Money have weight. For example I colllected 20k in 50 hrs gameplay, it makes encumbrance of 50 on me (from total of 103). To keep money I need to deposit it at bank (without interest :\)
To buy a house I need 500k-1m, depending on how big is the house. Also i can buy ships for 1-2m
6) The dungueons are most important part of game. They all have one style, but always interesting and fun to explore. Besides being labirynths, they keep interesting things in them (kitchen, libraries, living rooms, water tunnels). 80% of quests have to do with dungeons. From all elder Scrolls games Daggerfall has best dungeons my opinion. From gameplay perspective you could call Daggerfall rather dungeon-crawler than open world game
7) the size of the game is not benefit for exploration. Having size of an Europen country, there is nothing besides trees and bush plants. No signs, no roads, no lakes and wildlife. Only trees and landscape. The settlements are still so small that there is little chance that you will discover one while travelling through land. Also all settlements look same (there are 15000 of them in this game). You have seen one settelment - you saw them all. My advice - just move to the capital city of Daggerfall. It is the biggest city and has everything to offer
8) I miss third person view. Sometime i wish to press F like i did in Morrowin, Skyrim and Oblivion. But no. Only possibility to see yourself is via inventory. All game is first person view
9) I like how much lore has this game to offer. The books are precious loot in this game with prices of 500 and higher. Also there are many libraries and bookstores, many books you will not find in later games. So for reading types there is much to read and explore. For me, books are second essential thing in the game after dungeons. So much to read
10) I agree on words "Daggerfall and Morrowind are nothing alike".
And still, Daggerfall beats Skyrim for me :)
1. There is a fan made patch (bundled with DaggerfallSetup[theelderscrolls.wiwiland.net]) that changes the appearance of some NPCs. For example Barenziah and Helseth will look like dunmer. As for orsimer... You'll get a chance to speak with orcs later. That said they were mere beasts up until the Warp in the West (TES:Online breaks the lore in that regard).
3. Streetwise affects dialogues with npcs when selecting "blunt" language.
5. If you need to carry a lot of money you can get letters of credit in banks. It will cost you 1-2% of total sum though (can't remember how much exactly).
It's better to invest your money into ship instead of house. That said if you are going to buy one then buy a large ship. Smaller ships are bugged (collision detection problems).
6. Not all dungeons look the same. For the most part though unique dungeons are part of the main quest.
8. Well... Maybe somebody will make a third person camera mod for Daggerfall Unity. :)
I am glad to find good game that gonna keep me entertained for at least a year, and this being from my favorite franchise Elder Scrolls . And you mentioned Elder Scrolls Online. How good do you think is that one? Is that like Skyrim? Is lore damage in this game big enough to hold off sensitive players?
I will never understand the incredible praise it gets. The game itself is paint-by-numbers at best, and a bloated trainwreck at worst. It's basically only uniquely good, if you like reading, a lot. As the foundational lore of Elder Scrolls exists mostly within Daggerfall. Otherwise, it's just your standard dungeon crawler experience typical of the era.
The only people who think this is the best TES game, are people who don't really like what TES has become, and would rather just have the same Might and Magic style clones ad infinitum. That's fine if you think those kinds of games are superior, but in my opinion, Elder Scrolls never defined itself as its own game until Redguard, and capitalized on that with Morrowind. And then promptly lost it with Oblivion, clawing fractions back ever since. So no, nobody is happy.