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So basically Azura is killing two birds with one stone: She's keeping lorkhan subdued for his crimes against his people as well as laying a smack down on the tribunal. But once again, I really think the tribunal killed themselves with their own arrogance. They thought they knew the future and had the power to prevent it from happening. Even the ministry of truth fell to the ground in the end, though.
I know that. I was asking it as a means of refuting a different argument.
I did read it, but BOTH Dagoth Ur and the False Tribunal are the villains of this game. Vivec can at least acknowledge that fact, but Dagoth Ur never does. Maybe the things he did are the result of his corruption, but that doesn't excuse the fact the he's using mind control and disease as weapons in his plans. IMO, that fact alone makes him a villain.
Azura already is a villain. She's a daedra after all. Mind you she's considered a good daedra, but only because the "good daedra" are the daedra that aren't directly in contest with the tribunal. She's still evil, she still uses people's lives as pawns in her games. She still curses the entire chimer race for something that 3 individuals did, and feels entitled to be worshipped by the dark elves, but hasn't actually done anything for them. It's not like the dunmer ancestral gods created the dunmer. They're all deadra, that means that they actively avoided the creation of the world, and only wanted in after it was created to manipulate people and grow their influence.
The fact that it's seen as wrong that the dunmer turned away from their gods (literally just conniving deadra and evil demons) just shows the zealousness of the religion and the daedra hold over the population. You even implied in a previous post that the tribunal are evil or wrong for turning away from their gods (their gods that have done nothing for them I will reiterate), who managed to convince people that turning away from worshipping them is a crime and evil.
The tribunal when they did turn away from their gods even said that the daedra are disconnected from humanity and give no cares for their people except for the power they can get from it. When the tribunal started, they did want to do good for their people unlike the daedra. And they did for a long time too, until the heart started corrupting them, but mostly once dagoth Ur came back and ambushed them, causing them to slowly lose power and become more desperate.
The tribunal sure aren't good either, but neither are the daedra. At least the tribunal wanted to help, and can blame their failings on being mortals become god with the flaws mortals have. The daedra have no excuse except that they are inherently evil when it comes to the metaphysics of nirn and how creation worked.
And I get your dig at real world religion here, with the pestilence remark, but even in every single Abrahamic religion, god still gives the people free will (aka NOT mind control) and let's them either choose a good or evil path (in context to their religion). The fact that this god gives you a choice, makes them far more benevolent than someone like dagoth ur who wants to control everybody and not give them choices.
Even I keep saying Lorkhans Heart corrupted people even though it may not have done.
After all maybe it was/is all part of Lorkhans "test".
It was only the Elven gods passing lies about Lorkhan that made many think he was on the evil side.
"spread "the truth of Lorkhan's test", "the Tri-Angled Truth, by which mortals may equal or surpass the gods that created them (the stated purpose of the Mundus), which may be the "truth of Lorkhan's test" referred to in legend."
WHAT? THE DAEDRA DID NOT CREATE THE DUNMER!!! WRONG.
"Those who agreed with Boethiah and followed the Velothi exodus became the Chimer, and Boethiah taught them many things, such as the "Tri-Angled Truth"
I leave you with a quote from my pal:
"Behold, arrogant Tribunal! The power of the Heart flows through me and my minions. We are the gods now, growing stronger as you grow weaker. It is time to pay for your betrayal!" Daguth-Ur aka Voryn Dagoth aka Sharmat, Immortal Lord High Councillor of House Dagoth.
p.s just thought, if given a choice between good and evil and its up to you, why did he destroy Sodom and Gommorah? Was it not there choice? So that is not mind control, be evil and I will rain brimstone upon you, but its your choice.
The daedra just taught the chimer much of their culture, but didn't create them. The chimer were just a branch of the high elves before.
But the culture the daedra teach the chimer is ♥♥♥♥♥♥ up. The dark elves in elder scrolls are just a spin on the drow from DND, a society that is evil in its core and doesn't see anything wrong with sadism, who tamed and farmed bugs and used their carapace for armour, etc.
The dunmer society is basically a lawful evil society, slavery is not only accepted but encouraged as part of their rich culture for example.
So yeah the daedra did create their culture, but they didn't create the dunmer themselves (though azuras curse definitely set them apart from other elves). The only daedra that really created any of the main tes races would have been boethiah with the orcs and trinimac. But again, daedra do not have the power to create, just corrupt or destroy
And as for Sodom and gamorra, the people wiped out were literally pedophiles, rapists and murderers. A group of people who are objectively bad (and I know you're making a point, but it's hard to get others to sympathize with that point when your victims are the worst examples of a human).
So yes, the message is you are given freedom of choice, but if you use freedom to do the most heinous of acts, then your choice is objectively wrong (not just from a Deity point of view or because of "rules", but because universally rape and murder is wrong), is it not?
I'm not even religious or believe in these real world religions, but I get the point of the message - humans are given a soul or whatever you wanna call it that gives them a conscience, that is supposed to separate them from other races (regardless of whether this is true or not, this is the teachings of the Abrahamic religions), and universally even the most uneducated of human knows that killing another human unprovoked is wrong deep down in their soul. so given that gift humans have the power to create and destroy. yes the idea is that you're given a choice and freedom, but to be a "good" person (as that's what we're talking about is good vs evil), you shouldn't use that freedom to destroy others.
In my opinion I'm pretty sure that the god in these religions is above the concept of good and evil - or at least that was supposed to be the point of the teachings. It's a concept that only applies to humans because of the circumstances of their supposed origin.
If I were to give the Abrahamic god a DND alignment, I'd probably give them lawful neutral or maybe true neutral (but I lean more towards lawful because of the laws the god creates through things like the concept of gravity, how biology works, etc as well as the actual laws of the religion like the ten Commandments).
The daedra refused to help create mundus. Azura is a daedric lord in the sense that they have the et ada divinity, but more accurately Azura is an aedra and a divine. So, Azura did have a hand in creating the chimer.
What? Azura's not one of the Aedra, she's Daedra. UESP explicitly calls her one of the Daedric Prince. Nowhere in her lore does it say that she contributed to the creation of Nirn, and that's the defining factor in what makes an et'Ada an Aedra. Therefore, since she wasn't part of Nirn's creation, she's Daedra. She "created" the Chimer in the sense that she's the source of the religious beliefs that make them different from the Aldmeri, which is what they used to be.
Why do people think Daedra are evil?
Daedra are just "different", they have as much trouble understanding the peoples of Nirn as much as the people of Nirn have understanding Daedra.
Azura one of the three percieved good Daedric Princes, the others being Boethiah and Mephala.
Quoted from UESP:
"Molag Bal wanted my mind, Boethiah wanted my arms, and Nocturnal perhaps my curiosity. Azura wants all of that, and our love above all. Not our abject slavering, but our honest and genuine caring in all its forms. It is important to her that our emotions be engaged in her worship. And our love must also be directed inward. If we love her and hate ourselves, she feels our pain. I will, for all time, have no other mistress." — Sigillah Parate
Now does that sound like Daedra are evil. You might as well say all peoples of Nirn are good.
It's like if you got trapped in a video game. It's your new reality, and you're very powerful because you can exploit the game engine. And the game creator is trapped in there with you, but has amnesia. You still see the same person, and probably don't like him. But he has no idea what's going on. And also he can't die. Sure, a mortal can die, but killing all the mortals is both a foolish and pointless task, just like killing the game creator repeatedly in the game you're stuck in.
Also the wheel is laid out in a way that means it would break if all the mortals died. The wheel is a metaphysical representation of power distribution in mundus, as far as I can tell. The mortals are at the center, the daedric princes are the spokes, and lorkhan is the outer edge of the wheel. If the mortals die, there's nothing holding the spokes in place, and the wheel would collapse. This may be the end of a kalpa, which would mean that the dreamer awakes, and mundus stops existing until lorkhan convinces auriel to make the wheel again.
Damnit, Kirkbride. I know you just wove a bunch of storytelling devices into your story as plot devices, and it's kinda awesome but also kinda transparent but damn dude it made a great story.
Only 15 (I think) Daedric Princes and not all of them like to mess with the peoples of Nirn. I think some just out of curiosity.
But how many on Nirn practice conjuration and keep pulling Daedra from there realm to "experiment" on them or steal there souls for gems. Maybe 100's practising this "cruel" magic.
And yes the Dunmer even have Daedra servants as well as some other mages etc.
There are 2 in the temple quests who help you along the path.
I think so, too. UESP does mention that the Dunmer consider her, along with Boethiah and Mephala, to be kind of the ultimate spiritual source of who they are. It was the combined teachings of those three Daedric Princes that made the Chimer who they were, up until the Battle of Red Mountain.