Why can i have only one RPG round? :: Insurgency General Discussion

Desiire

Jun 25, 2015 @ 10:23am

Resupply after shooting it. Or get the grenade launcher

Noob-tube is my primary weapon

#1

Mox

Jun 25, 2015 @ 10:37am

Originally posted by Durh:
Why can i have only one RPG round?..?

For game balancing purpose....One mini-nuke at a time is plenty

#2

RaÿTHeoN:

Jun 25, 2015 @ 11:27am

Originally posted by Durh:
Why can i have only one RPG round?

Because this isn't COD.

#3

Sterling

Jun 25, 2015 @ 1:24pm

Because IED is the true enlightened warrior's weapon. Allahu akbar, brother.

And because RPG massacres people enough. We got enough explosives.

Last edited by Sterling; Jun 25, 2015 @ 1:25pm

#4

Dr.Wholian? has Insurgency

Jun 25, 2015 @ 1:34pm

Originally posted by Mox:
For game balancing purpose....One mini-nuke at a time is plenty

Which begs the question: why did they make it a mini-nuke?

Real RPG-7's use a shaped charge designed to pierce vehicles, which does a weak job of channeling shrapnel in all directions for anti-personnel use. Additionally, the "one mininuke" is just bad gameplay, ensuring that any class devoted to RPG use won't get to actually use their role-based item except for one potshot per spawn.

Realistically, the AOE should be no better than a frag grenade, which means that carrying 2 rounds and lower supply cost would be balanced. This also means that RPG roles would get to use their class-based item twice as frequently, and not so motivated to entirely drop their class-based item due to its punishing supply cost and marginal functional use.

I mean come on, this is just obvious stuff which has remained unaddressed since beta.

#5

Sterling

Jun 25, 2015 @ 1:46pm

Originally posted by Dr.Wholian?:
Originally posted by Mox:
For game balancing purpose....One mini-nuke at a time is plenty
Which begs the question: why did they make it a mini-nuke?

Real RPG-7's use a shaped charge designed to pierce vehicles, which does a weak job of channeling shrapnel in all directions for anti-personnel use. Additionally, the "one mininuke" is just bad gameplay, ensuring that any class devoted to RPG use won't get to actually use their role-based item except for one potshot per spawn.

Realistically, the AOE should be no better than a frag grenade, which means that carrying 2 rounds and lower supply cost would be balanced. This also means that RPG roles would get to use their class-based item twice as frequently, and not so motivated to entirely drop their class-based item due to its punishing supply cost and marginal functional use.

I mean come on, this is just obvious stuff which has remained unaddressed since beta.

Well, the RPG does penetrate walls sometimes. While it can be agreeable that it should be closer to the real RPG, lots of people will start punishing the developers for changing it. I think that such changes might be out of the list now. ~Might~ be.

#6

static

Jun 25, 2015 @ 2:01pm

If RPGs were made true to life, the insurgent team would have at least 3-4 rockets per launcher, and they'd be a hell of a wall-banging weapon, able to penetrate and kill through just about any cover short of HESCO barricades or extremely thick brick/concrete walls. Think about how this would play out: the RPG (and AT4) would be able to kill through nearly all cover, and the current tactical climate of Insurgency would be upended.

I think the current RPG balance is fine, and perfectly plausible.

The large kill/wound radius could be due to the insurgents using GP (high explosive) rockets instead of shaped charge/HEAT (High Explosive Anti Tank). This is not outside the realm of possibility; other types of RPG rockets were produced by the Soviets and are still floating around IRL.

It could be due to the insurgents fitting shrapnel collars of some sort on their rockets. Not terribly unusual IRL; this was allegedly innovated by various revolutionary and insurgent groups to increase the anti-helicopter abilities of RPG rockets.

Or, most plausibly, the "mini-nuke" effect could be modeling the traumatic blast effects of simply being near an RPG detonation, which IIRC is by far one of the most common wounding mechanisms of RPG detonations IRL.

Remember that being directly hit by shrapnel or the warhead/supersonic molten copper jet is only part of the lethality of a rocket like this: the blast effects are also extremely lethal to the human body and brain, and affect a much larger radius than the relatively few pieces of shrapnel that are produced.

I'm not saying changes to RPG mechanics are a bad idea, but it would change important, foundational mechanics that the entire community would have to adjust to. Not something to be taken lightly, gamers are a notoriously touchy lot ;)

Last edited by static; Jun 25, 2015 @ 2:08pm

#7

Dr.Wholian? has Insurgency

Jun 25, 2015 @ 3:18pm

Originally posted by static:
If RPGs were made true to life, the insurgent team would have at least 3-4 rockets per launcher, and they'd be a hell of a wall-banging weapon, able to penetrate and kill through just about any cover short of HESCO barricades or extremely thick brick/concrete walls. Think about how this would play out: the RPG (and AT4) would be able to kill through nearly all cover, and the current tactical climate of Insurgency would be upended.

First of all, what metric have you used to evaluate the current penetration amount in-game and compare it to real penetration mechanics? Most likely you haven't used one and are just exaggerating/shooting in the wind. Without strong evidence or reasoning, there's really no reason to extend the RPG's current penetration values a great deal.

Moreover, the limitations of the current penetration mechanics simply won't allow them to get that bad. The projectile itself won't actually penetrate any cover - the only part that penetrates is the AOE (which is not actually directional). Thus no matter how high the penetration value is, you can frequently put any old object, be it some sheet metal debris, a window or flimsy part of an auto body, and it will stop the warhead many meters short, such that the AOE doesn't reach you.

The velocity is also a tiny fraction of the speed real RPG's actually travel at, as a result of engine restrictions on projectile speeds. So for all intents and purposes, these really are more like 40mm's with extra penetration and flatter trajectory more than real RPG's, and need to be balanced as such.

Originally posted by static:
The large kill/wound radius could be due to the insurgents using GP (high explosive) rockets instead of shaped charge/HEAT (High Explosive Anti Tank). This is not outside the realm of possibility; other types of RPG rockets were produced by the Soviets and are still floating around IRL.

The anti-personal rounds are visibly quite different from the HEAT rounds, and quite obviously not what has been modeled in-game. If you do any photo research, you'll see that the vast majority of RPG rounds shown in use by actual insurgents or found in captured weapon caches in Iraq and Aghanistan are only HEAT rounds.

Originally posted by static:
Or, most plausibly, the "mini-nuke" effect could be modeling the traumatic blast effects of simply being near an RPG detonation, which IIRC is by far one of the most common wounding mechanisms of RPG detonations IRL.

Remember that being directly hit by shrapnel or the warhead/supersonic molten copper jet is only part of the lethality of a rocket like this: the blast effects are also extremely lethal to the human body and brain, and affect a much larger radius than the relatively few pieces of shrapnel that are produced.

We have had community members who served overseas, who survived actually having RPGs fired at them IRL, who said the current AOE was too wide.

Originally posted by static:
I'm not saying changes to RPG mechanics are a bad idea, but it would change important, foundational mechanics that the entire community would have to adjust to. Not something to be taken lightly, gamers are a notoriously touchy lot ;)

Given that the core mechanics are hardly perfect and have mostly stagnated with little improvement since beta, I don't know that they're worth tip-toeing around so carefully.

Last edited by Dr.Wholian?; Jun 25, 2015 @ 3:19pm

#8

Compiled_

Jun 25, 2015 @ 4:10pm

Dr. Wholian, be honest. How many times have you been killed for sure by an RPG in PvP? How many times have you seen teammates actually die to an RPG? The people who use them shoot them randomly as a fear factor more than an attempt to actually kill unless they are sure of the enemy's location and the chances to kill. It's only as deadly as people make it out to be. Don't use the, "This game aims for realism!" excuse because, if that was the case you wouldn't be able to fire back if you got shot in the arm or, possibly, taking a shot from a bolt-action in this game. The RPG is fine as it stands in my eyes and I rarely ever use it or get shot at with it. It also adds a fun factor in this game. Hearing someone scream "RPG!" gives me the tingles. If they change it to your preference and I hear it? Who cares since you want it nerfed to uselessness.

Last edited by Compiled_; Jun 25, 2015 @ 4:11pm

#9

static

Jun 25, 2015 @ 6:35pm

Originally posted by Dr.Wholian?:
Given that the core mechanics are hardly perfect and have mostly stagnated with little improvement since beta, I don't know that they're worth tip-toeing around so carefully.

Well stated and amply supported, thanks for adding your thoughts Wholian!

Regarding wall penetration, I figured the RPG rockets modeled in-game are likely older models, probably the PG-7 or PG-7V rockets due to the flutes stamped on the nosecone, as seen here - http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/insurgency/images/9/98/INS_RPG-7.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width/300?cb=20140712051129. The upgraded PG-7V single-warhead rocket (circa 1961) is listed as penetrating 260mm of armor, certainly enough to punch through a standard brick or concrete wall that doesn't have debris obscuring the surface. The PG-7VL single-warhead rocket (circa 1977) is listed as penetrating ~500mm of armor, or 1.5M (five feet) of brick, or 1.1m of reinforced concrete. While I haven't found a non-armor material penetration figure for the older rocket, it stands to reason it could be a hazard to players taking cover behind many exposed walls in Insurgency.

Perhaps slightly increased penetration with a more limited blast radius would be a step towards more realistic modeling of the weapon characteristics, since the vast majority of RPG rockets produced were indeed armed with HEAT warheads.

My sources for both my RPG posts:
http://world.guns.ru/grenade/rus/rpg-7-e.html
http://www.armyrecognition.com/russia_russian_army_light_heavy_weapons_uk/rpg-7_anti-tank_grenade_rocket_launcher_technical_data_sheet_specifications_information_description.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RPG-7
* edit - fixed Insurgency game RPG image link

Last edited by static; Jun 25, 2015 @ 10:44pm

#10

76561198034663182 has Insurgency

Jun 25, 2015 @ 8:57pm

Originally posted by Dr.Wholian?:
Originally posted by Mox:
For game balancing purpose....One mini-nuke at a time is plenty
Which begs the question: why did they make it a mini-nuke?

Real RPG-7's use a shaped charge designed to pierce vehicles, which does a weak job of channeling shrapnel in all directions for anti-personnel use. Additionally, the "one mininuke" is just bad gameplay, ensuring that any class devoted to RPG use won't get to actually use their role-based item except for one potshot per spawn.

Realistically, the AOE should be no better than a frag grenade, which means that carrying 2 rounds and lower supply cost would be balanced. This also means that RPG roles would get to use their class-based item twice as frequently, and not so motivated to entirely drop their class-based item due to its punishing supply cost and marginal functional use.

I mean come on, this is just obvious stuff which has remained unaddressed since beta.

Exactly. They shouldn't be a mini nuke.

#11

76561198034663182 has Insurgency

Jun 25, 2015 @ 9:00pm

Originally posted by static:
Originally posted by Dr.Wholian?:
Given that the core mechanics are hardly perfect and have mostly stagnated with little improvement since beta, I don't know that they're worth tip-toeing around so carefully.
Well stated and amply supported, thanks for adding your thoughts Wholian!

Regarding wall penetration, I figured the RPG rockets modeled in-game are likely older models, probably the PG-7 or PG-7V rockets due to the flutes stamped on the nosecone, seen here (http://insurgency.wikia.com/wiki/RPG-7). The PG-7V single-warhead rocket (circa 1961) is listed as penetrating 260mm of armor, certainly enough to punch through a standard brick or concrete wall that doesn't have debris obscuring the surface. The PG-7VL single-warhead rocket (circa 1977) is listed as penetrating ~500mm of armor, or 1.5M (five feet) of brick, or 1.1m of reinforced concrete. While I haven't found a non-armor penetration figure for the older rocket, it stands to reason it could be a hazard to players taking cover behind many exposed walls in Insurgency.

Perhaps slightly increased penetration with a more limited blast radius would be a step towards more realistic modeling of the weapon characteristics, since the vast majority of RPG rockets produced were indeed armed with HEAT warheads.

My sources for both my RPG posts:
http://world.guns.ru/grenade/rus/rpg-7-e.html
http://www.armyrecognition.com/russia_russian_army_light_heavy_weapons_uk/rpg-7_anti-tank_grenade_rocket_launcher_technical_data_sheet_specifications_information_description.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RPG-7

You sir, are very correct. This man needs a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ medal.

#12

Insurgency

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