More realistic armour in sandstorm?

[Juhis]

The armor now works by reducing the damage. In real life if a bullet gets through your armor you are going down almost sertainly no matter what armor you wore. it should work so that with a basic kevlar vest a pistol bullet (if not AP) just doesnt get through. It hurts like hell and throws your aim off. But that is the realistic way. A rifle ofcourse gets through. Heavy armor should either come with steel or ceramic plates. Steel plates are heavier but can stop more shots while ceramic plates stop only a few but are lighter. The hitbox should be modeled so that if a rifle round hits the vest anywhere where there is not a plate it will get through.

More armor variants

Kevlar vest - reduces shrapnel and stops all things smaller than 44 magnum (if not ap) at all angles. A slug from a shotgun doesnt necessarily make it through but it will make you fall down and probably die from internal bleeding or choking in the pieces of your ribcage


Platecarrier - protects against rifles and pistols in the front and back but doesnt cover the sides


Thicker kevlar vest with pockets for plates of your preferance in the front back and if you want even the sides - protects against non ap pistols everywhere and even ap pistol calibers ( if not shot from a smg) if it hits the plates. Protects against rifles if they hit the plates. Reduces shrapnel damage. thicker kevlar means less pain even if a round hits a non plated spot. If a round hits a plated spot you dont get much pain or aimpunch. Weight varies by how many or what quality plates (steel, ceramic or just trauma plates) you put in.



TLDR if a bullet doesnt get through it doesnt, if it does you are dead. This is the realistic way.

[Plato]

that would be a ♥♥♥♥♥ to program.

[Juhis]

Escrito originalmente por Plato:

that would be a ♥♥♥♥♥ to program.

Not necessarily. Most difficult thing would be the hitboxes. These dudes know what they are doing they could make this happen if they want to.

You have to give each gun ( depending on bullet type) a penetration value. If it hits someone in the torso it checks what area it hit from the hitbox and refers the armors bullet resistance value at that location. If the penetration value is bigger than the resirance value Boom houson we have a problem the bullet goes through and you are dead

[GoryRat]

did you post this is the wrong game disscussion? This isnt a mil simulator.

[Sterling]

Let's not, please. I want to be able to use a low caliber weapon or a shotgun without being a complete and total burden to my team.

[Marksman Max]

Escrito originalmente por |Smelborp|:

The armor now works by reducing the damage. In real life if a bullet gets through your armor you are going down almost sertainly no matter what armor you wore. it should work so that with a basic kevlar vest a pistol bullet (if not AP) just doesnt get through. It hurts like hell and throws your aim off. But that is the realistic way. A rifle ofcourse gets through. Heavy armor should either come with steel or ceramic plates. Steel plates are heavier but can stop more shots while ceramic plates stop only a few but are lighter. The hitbox should be modeled so that if a rifle round hits the vest anywhere where there is not a plate it will get through.

More armor variants

Kevlar vest - reduces shrapnel and stops all things smaller than 44 magnum (if not ap) at all angles. A slug from a shotgun doesnt necessarily make it through but it will make you fall down and probably die from internal bleeding or choking in the pieces of your ribcage


Platecarrier - protects against rifles and pistols in the front and back but doesnt cover the sides


Thicker kevlar vest with pockets for plates of your preferance in the front back and if you want even the sides - protects against non ap pistols everywhere and even ap pistol calibers ( if not shot from a smg) if it hits the plates. Protects against rifles if they hit the plates. Reduces shrapnel damage. thicker kevlar means less pain even if a round hits a non plated spot. If a round hits a plated spot you dont get much pain or aimpunch. Weight varies by how many or what quality plates (steel, ceramic or just trauma plates) you put in.



TLDR if a bullet doesnt get through it doesnt, if it does you are dead. This is the realistic way.

A few things:

-> A pistol bullet probably wouldn't kill you, even without armor. One 9mm probably wouldn't drop a guy (although a .45 ACP probably would). That being said, a "basic kevlar vest" probably wouldn't stop a 9mm bullet anyway due to the speed of the bullet, and 9mm AP would shoot through a light vest no problem.

-> As for adding flinch, I'm personally against it. It's annoying enough to just watch someone miss in CoD WWII because he gets shot and loses all control of himself, and Sandstorm isn't going to be exactly realistic. I mean, shooting an M4 while driving a car seems far-fetched but it's also bad*ss so who cares

-> A kevlar vest won't stop a f*cking slug shotgun. You're dead. It may stop buckshot retty effectively, but you'd be knocked on your ass. Again, though. I don't want a "knockdown" system because that's just f*cking annoying and not fun at all.

-> Plate carriers almost always have plates on the sides, at least as far as I know.

-> Heavy armor can stop 5.56 AP rounds, which you don't seem to mention.

-> Not all bullets kill. Most pistol / smg bullets wouldn't one-shot.

Escrito originalmente por Plato:

that would be a ♥♥♥♥♥ to program.

Welcome to the magic of Unreal Engine 4, where literally anything is possible (and pretty easily doable). Source was too much f*ckin work for NWI to try and implement it.

Escrito originalmente por |Smelborp|:

You have to give each gun ( depending on bullet type) a penetration value. If it hits someone in the torso it checks what area it hit from the hitbox and refers the armors bullet resistance value at that location. If the penetration value is bigger than the resirance value Boom houson we have a problem the bullet goes through and you are dead

As for anything being a constant one-shot kill, I'm not sure if that's the way we should really go about it.

Also, every firearm in this game already has a penetration value used for shooting through cover. Pen value depends on caliber and ammo type.

Escrito originalmente por GoryRat:

did you post this is the wrong game disscussion? This isnt a mil simulator.

There isn't much of a discussion board for Sandstorm, considering the game isn't even out yet.

Escrito originalmente por Blue:

That's how Insurgency works already or am I wrong? Just the kevlar part isn't implemented.

Nope. None of this was implemented.

NWI originally planned to add these sort of mechaincs into Insurgency, and they existed in a beta-like state in Co-op modes and Competitive, but it was later removed (I think, anyway).

Escrito originalmente por Sterling:

Let's not, please. I want to be able to use a low caliber weapon or a shotgun without being a complete and total burden to my team.

Personally, this is why I wouldn't like a system like this. The only way it would work is if they used like Escape From Tarkov mechanics and gave armor durability that hinders or removes it's effectiveness once depleted.

[Juhis]

Yeah a durability system would be a good addition. Its realistic-ish and more balanced. The ceramic plates can tank only a few shots before breaking in real life but steel and kevlar usually wont break or wear down so easily. I agree this would be probably too realistic and hardcore as when playing with a pistol you would need to be very accurate to kill. But can you tell me you havent bought ap rounds immediatly when you have the suplies?

I dont know. I really want a system even somewhat like this but if needed i am open to balancing and improving.

[TheSting]

Escrito originalmente por |Smelborp|:

The armor now works by reducing the damage. In real life if a bullet gets through your armor you are going down almost sertainly no matter what armor you wore. it should work so that with a basic kevlar vest a pistol bullet (if not AP) just doesnt get through. It hurts like hell and throws your aim off. But that is the realistic way. A rifle ofcourse gets through. Heavy armor should either come with steel or ceramic plates. Steel plates are heavier but can stop more shots while ceramic plates stop only a few but are lighter. The hitbox should be modeled so that if a rifle round hits the vest anywhere where there is not a plate it will get through.

More armor variants

Kevlar vest - reduces shrapnel and stops all things smaller than 44 magnum (if not ap) at all angles. A slug from a shotgun doesnt necessarily make it through but it will make you fall down and probably die from internal bleeding or choking in the pieces of your ribcage


Platecarrier - protects against rifles and pistols in the front and back but doesnt cover the sides


Thicker kevlar vest with pockets for plates of your preferance in the front back and if you want even the sides - protects against non ap pistols everywhere and even ap pistol calibers ( if not shot from a smg) if it hits the plates. Protects against rifles if they hit the plates. Reduces shrapnel damage. thicker kevlar means less pain even if a round hits a non plated spot. If a round hits a plated spot you dont get much pain or aimpunch. Weight varies by how many or what quality plates (steel, ceramic or just trauma plates) you put in.



TLDR if a bullet doesnt get through it doesnt, if it does you are dead. This is the realistic way.

i would love to see something like this. though if we are gonna have steel armour i think we would need a larger selection of high calibre BRs and Snipers to deal with them, since only insurgents would have access to a 7.62 assault rifle (AKM) which would be extremely unbalanced. however the "durability" of steel plates shouldnt be as it is IRL, that would just lead to Call of Duty style juggernaut playstyles for some players (since most players aim centre of mass) perhaps 5 or 6 5.56mm rounds breaks the steel plating? im not sure what the real life values are, but 5 or 6 to break a steel plate would be balanced imo since most ppl spam M4s and M16s anyway.

Kevlar should be extremely effective vs frags and buckshot rounds. a slug would probably deliver enough kinetic force to kill a player instantly, much like what u stated, but much quicker.

what would be interesting is if we could get face plate armour. many special forces are using them now, i believe theres an image in the artwork tab somewhere that shows taiwanese special forces wearing them. 9mm would probably just bounce off it, and 45 acp might leave a dent? obviously rifle rounds would go straight through.

[Juhis]

Escrito originalmente por TAW TheSt1ng:

Escrito originalmente por |Smelborp|:

The armor now works by reducing the damage. In real life if a bullet gets through your armor you are going down almost sertainly no matter what armor you wore. it should work so that with a basic kevlar vest a pistol bullet (if not AP) just doesnt get through. It hurts like hell and throws your aim off. But that is the realistic way. A rifle ofcourse gets through. Heavy armor should either come with steel or ceramic plates. Steel plates are heavier but can stop more shots while ceramic plates stop only a few but are lighter. The hitbox should be modeled so that if a rifle round hits the vest anywhere where there is not a plate it will get through.

More armor variants

Kevlar vest - reduces shrapnel and stops all things smaller than 44 magnum (if not ap) at all angles. A slug from a shotgun doesnt necessarily make it through but it will make you fall down and probably die from internal bleeding or choking in the pieces of your ribcage


Platecarrier - protects against rifles and pistols in the front and back but doesnt cover the sides


Thicker kevlar vest with pockets for plates of your preferance in the front back and if you want even the sides - protects against non ap pistols everywhere and even ap pistol calibers ( if not shot from a smg) if it hits the plates. Protects against rifles if they hit the plates. Reduces shrapnel damage. thicker kevlar means less pain even if a round hits a non plated spot. If a round hits a plated spot you dont get much pain or aimpunch. Weight varies by how many or what quality plates (steel, ceramic or just trauma plates) you put in.



TLDR if a bullet doesnt get through it doesnt, if it does you are dead. This is the realistic way.

i would love to see something like this. though if we are gonna have steel armour i think we would need a larger selection of high calibre BRs and Snipers to deal with them, since only insurgents would have access to a 7.62 assault rifle (AKM) which would be extremely unbalanced. however the "durability" of steel plates shouldnt be as it is IRL, that would just lead to Call of Duty style juggernaut playstyles for some players (since most players aim centre of mass) perhaps 5 or 6 5.56mm rounds breaks the steel plating? im not sure what the real life values are, but 5 or 6 to break a steel plate would be balanced imo since most ppl spam M4s and M16s anyway.

Kevlar should be extremely effective vs frags and buckshot rounds. a slug would probably deliver enough kinetic force to kill a player instantly, much like what u stated, but much quicker.

what would be interesting is if we could get face plate armour. many special forces are using them now, i believe theres an image in the artwork tab somewhere that shows taiwanese special forces wearing them. 9mm would probably just bounce off it, and 45 acp might leave a dent? obviously rifle rounds would go straight through.

I like this. As i said i am open to improvements and balancing. Good points

[Temujin]

with all the talk about armor on here can we please also consider a thing called overpenetration? the meta is take AP rounds ASAP but there's no real downside to it in any circumstance. likewise there's no obvious advantage to taking the shotgun or large bullet guns like .45 ACP. AP rounds shouldn't be as effective hittign limbs, while buckshot and .45 ACP should absolutely stop any unarmored guy dead in its track.

[Marksman Max]

Escrito originalmente por Temujin:

with all the talk about armor on here can we please also consider a thing called overpenetration? the meta is take AP rounds ASAP but there's no real downside to it in any circumstance. likewise there's no obvious advantage to taking the shotgun or large bullet guns like .45 ACP. AP rounds shouldn't be as effective hittign limbs, while buckshot and .45 ACP should absolutely stop any unarmored guy dead in its track.

AP shots reduce damage while HP increases it. That was another thing I was considering.

[Juhis]

Escrito originalmente por Temujin:

with all the talk about armor on here can we please also consider a thing called overpenetration? the meta is take AP rounds ASAP but there's no real downside to it in any circumstance. likewise there's no obvious advantage to taking the shotgun or large bullet guns like .45 ACP. AP rounds shouldn't be as effective hittign limbs, while buckshot and .45 ACP should absolutely stop any unarmored guy dead in its track.

Yeah but if a 5.56 hits your body the hydrostatic shock is enough to kill overpenetration or not
There should be a downside to ap but it needs to be made right so it is a tactical choice instead of being a choice driven by what you can afford at the moment ( normal hp or ap rounds)

But yeah. Big rounds should have a tactical advantage. For example having more stopping power like slowing you down more as they hit you making follow up shots easier and effectiveness agains un armoured targets and bodyparts and now when we are getting actual ballistic models bullet drop bullet speed etc a bigger round will slow down less than a light round.

[Juhis]

Also a cool way to define the bullets damage would be to multipy its mass by the speed it hits you ( realistic damage dropoff) and its penetrwtion score by multiplying its hitting speed by the mass and dividing that by the bullets front surface area. The rate of a bullet should drop of by should be calculated from the bullets inertia / monetum ( speed x mass) each tick so that the speed drop off is expotential so that the bullet also follows a realistic ballistic curve at each situation instead of some predetermined curve for each weapon. i am not good enough at physics to say anything for sure but all these models should be made as real as possible but still simple enough to make a fun game.


That means bigger rounds would have huge momentum even at low speeds so they do a lot of damage and their speed drops of less.

Smaller rounds have more penetration value if they travel fast just like in real life a 5.56 penetrates better than 7.62 because speed is what beats armour the best. But a big round like 338 or 50 will penetrate any armor as even if their surface area is a bit bigger they have a ♥♥♥♥ ton of momentum behind them.

To balance all of this out a mix between the damage reduction system and " all or nothing" penetration system would be good. So that when a bullet gets though it still calculates its damage ( which has maybe slowed down based on its penetration score so that at a penetration even the game calculates the damage again based on the armor for example a if a bullet with a pen of 5 passes through armor that has pen 4 it calculates 5-4 and uses that value as some value in the new damage function)

And for realistic modeling the bullet variable pen values should be float values and not boolean ( boolean = 1,2,3 float =1.62547816647726...)

Not always one shot kills and more balance YAY

[Temujin]

Escrito originalmente por |Smelborp|:

Yeah but if a 5.56 hits your body the hydrostatic shock is enough to kill overpenetration or not
There should be a downside to ap but it needs to be made right so it is a tactical choice instead of being a choice driven by what you can afford at the moment ( normal hp or ap rounds)

But yeah. Big rounds should have a tactical advantage. For example having more stopping power like slowing you down more as they hit you making follow up shots easier and effectiveness agains un armoured targets and bodyparts and now when we are getting actual ballistic models bullet drop bullet speed etc a bigger round will slow down less than a light round.

hydrostatic shock is an urban myth. russian special forces went to a larger bullet cartridge for their guns because larger bullets fired at subsonic speed work better with suppressors and because they found smaller calibers to be overpenetrating, not incapacitating unarmored targets immediately. thus they introduced the 9x39mm cartridge. IIRC that was based on experiences from that hostage situation in a russian theatre in the 1990s.

[Juhis]

Escrito originalmente por Temujin:

Escrito originalmente por |Smelborp|:

Yeah but if a 5.56 hits your body the hydrostatic shock is enough to kill overpenetration or not
There should be a downside to ap but it needs to be made right so it is a tactical choice instead of being a choice driven by what you can afford at the moment ( normal hp or ap rounds)

But yeah. Big rounds should have a tactical advantage. For example having more stopping power like slowing you down more as they hit you making follow up shots easier and effectiveness agains un armoured targets and bodyparts and now when we are getting actual ballistic models bullet drop bullet speed etc a bigger round will slow down less than a light round.

hydrostatic shock is an urban myth. russian special forces went to a larger bullet cartridge for their guns because larger bullets fired at subsonic speed work better with suppressors and because they found smaller calibers to be overpenetrating, not incapacitating unarmored targets immediately. thus they introduced the 9x39mm cartridge. IIRC that was based on experiences from that hostage situation in a russian theatre in the 1990s.

Yes overpenetration exists at certain speeds. But go shoot the the nearest pond with a supesonic rifle and see if the wate splashes like hell. If it does now concider that the human body is about 70% water and do the math. At high speeds hydrostatic shock is a real thing and you can ask any well educated person about it and they can tell you it excist.

Or you can just shoot a watermelon with a m16. It blows up thus proving hydrostatic shocks excistanse

[Marksman Max]

Escrito originalmente por |Smelborp|:

Escrito originalmente por Temujin:

hydrostatic shock is an urban myth. russian special forces went to a larger bullet cartridge for their guns because larger bullets fired at subsonic speed work better with suppressors and because they found smaller calibers to be overpenetrating, not incapacitating unarmored targets immediately. thus they introduced the 9x39mm cartridge. IIRC that was based on experiences from that hostage situation in a russian theatre in the 1990s.

Yes overpenetration exists at certain speeds. But go shoot the the nearest pond with a supesonic rifle and see if the wate splashes like hell. If it does now concider that the human body is about 70% water and do the math. At high speeds hydrostatic shock is a real thing and you can ask any well educated person about it and they can tell you it excist.

Or you can just shoot a watermelon with a m16. It blows up thus proving hydrostatic shocks excistanse

After watching Demolition Ranch shoot milk jugs filled with water with a .22LR and then this .22 Hornet round, and seeing the milk jug actually explode upon the Hornet round hitting it, I'd say Hydrostatic shock exists.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPgAEi1E6Eo