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These are unproven rounds. M855A1 vs Mk318 or Big Army vs. Marines. The M855A1 is causing a lot of premature wears on AR15.M16/M4 bolts and I think Army Special Operation went back to M855. Do the Marines use mk.318 en mass?
http://taskandpurpose.com/the-army-and-marine-corps-ammo-debate-is-about-more-than-bullets/
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/03/30/army-and-marines-butt-heads-on-m855a1mk-318/
Basically you're thinking way ahead of the game. The Marine might get rid of mk318 or force too and use M855A1. One have go IMO and I doubt it big Army.
Also check the comments on thefirearmsblog. These people made good interesting points on why the mk318 isn't good. I personally don't have any experience with mk.318 and I really doubt it will last long. Either the Army and Marine agree on the new ammo or Congress will force it on them.
The "new map" thing about night or other game modes might not be as exciting as a whole new environment, but it's a lot of work to make the adjustments to the maps for these, and they're free updates. Maybe we can work on better wording update releases to discern between new mode-specific versions and completely new maps, but this is actually the first time I've heard anyone mention it. My personal thinking is that it's a free update and is a new experience, so I'm not too worried on this one.
There is a lot of discussion on real-world ballistic performance here that is interesting, but I am trying to figure out how to boil it down to actual game changes that will move the game in a positive direction. I believe I speak for a majority of players when I say that although the "known damage" system is not realistic, it's better for most gameplay situations than having a semi-randomized damage applied. This boils down to something I have recently changed my mind on, which is a bit off topic, but demonstrates why I think the way I do and gives a little more information as to how I try to do things.
I used to want to have flashbangs, explosions and suppression make the player's weapon randomly move off target, move the player, change stance, or other "involuntary" debuffs, but I have found that most players HATE the immediate and arbitrary application of something that can't be trained for. So, now I try to find ways to simply tweak the mechanics we use (like vision blur and sway) to simply scale up or down depending upon the desired effect. In that line, any system I implement ought to be well understood, explained to the community so serious players can train to counter the effect, and be implemented in a way that balances the need for consequences on the receiving side without becoming too unpredictable or unbalanced.
With that said, I think we can all agree that the damage model in the game, in particular with regard to armor and ammo variables, can be much better. Here are my ideas on ways to start addressing this, I'd love to get some feedback on these.
1. Armor will stop all chest damage from frags, small arms, and rifle rounds past a certain range, with the "soft" panels that comprise a majority of the vest surface area. Light armor will simply be this armor with no "hard plates".
2. Heavy armor adds rifle plates front and back, which will stop multiple rifle rounds. How this is balanced will be either having a fixed hit point pool for each actual plate, a number of hits they can withstand, or some balance of the two.
3. Default ammo is FMJ and takes the place of current AP. HP is available for weapons/classes that would have access, such as specialists. Tracers are loaded 1:4 in all rifles and LMGs by default, but can be turned off by adding a suppressor or possibly making it optional as a separate option from the ammo selection itself.
4. Switch up M40A1 and Mosin with some real beefy stuff, like an L96A1 or M98 for security and a KSVK for Insurgents. This weapon would defeat all plates and armor, giving an actual benefit to using these over the FAL/EBR.
5. Add gear slots for things like DAPS kit (extra soft armor) and choice of headgear to include ballistic helmets to allow further tailoring of armor loadout to desired role. Possibly restrict these based on role, so demolitions/breachers could get helmets, neck armor, and have much greater survivability, and offer specialists/snipers a plate carrier only for their roles?
6. Look at implementing a more consistent ballistic model based upon something like bullet BC, weight, composition, and muzzle velocity to determine damage, rather than having each weapon have its own ammo types and damage definitions. So, I'd say "M4A1 fires a 62gr copper jacketed steel core round with a BC of .304 at a muzzle velocity of 880m/s" and then the game would determine how much damage to apply based upon a standard, simplified ballistic calculator based upon terminal energy and do some of what you guys are saying with wound channels in a consistent way. This would also free us up to make ammo type "5.56mm 30 round STANAG mag" and have them usable between M16/M4/AC556/MK18 since they SHOULD be the exact same magazines, so you can throw down your M16 for an MK18 and be able to continue to function without being limited to the one magazine in the weapon. The current ammo system precludes that as it stands, which is the other big issue I have with how we currently handle inventory. This would greatly change the way the game applies damage, but would make the effects of bullets much more consistent and closer to real-world performance without making too much work to implement it.
I look forward to getting more feedback, but please try to keep it in the scope of what you think we ought to do to fix the game; while I am interested in the discussions about ballistics and other real-world points brought up here, I want to put that aside for the time being and come up with ideas that I can bring to the team and see if we can make this work better without breaking the game and screwing it up royally. The damage model is a HUGELY dangerous thing to change in a game this mature, so the developers must be exceedingly cautious in any changes to such a core part of the game.
almost what RO2 did with action, classic, and veteran.
the current system would be for newbies out of the box and sales. and they would NOT get rank or points, until they actually play on the more hardcore servers with the above mentioned changes you suggested, i actually like your 1-5 points, and 6 not so much, due to it being a little nerdgasm like and not needed IMO. but the other ones, yes. I've been suggesting choosing headgear, and the other ones for a while as well. not quite as nerdy as others suggest, but something a little bit more doable in the not so serious Insurgency world.
You're still not actually applying any of this information to topic at hand, which is the function of these weapons in the game. Choice of ammo types is an integral part of the game structure, so naturally multiple ammo types will be provided each with their own performance, rather than a single performance based on a single ammo type that Deadlylag personally feels is "battle tested".
You're the one thinking "ahead of the game" if you are using speculation on future Big Army and USMC decisions as an excuse change ammo currently in the game. Regardless of what happens right now or in the future, the Iraq War occurred from 2003 to 2011, when M855 was the standard FMJ round, while Mk262 and Mk318 were the main loads employed by SF in SBR's. The majority of U.S. operations in Afghanistan happened in this window as well.
Regardless of what you personally feel is "battle tested" or what happens to ammo procurement in the future, Mk262 and Mk318 were used extensively by SF in the Mk18, and since the game's loadout system is based on the mechanic of choosing from various ammo types, it only makes sense to implement them along with the performance differences they are known to have from M855 and M995.
it would also make more sense, Right now most player "THINK" heavy armor is good, why? becuase why the ♥♥♥♥ would it be bad?
Keeping a design that is easy to understand is very good! And indeed changes to that end (like you talk about with buffs/nerfs to armor/ammo are very good.
There have been many private test of such systems and theater under those designs (IE better choice in equipment and balance) and almost every single one was met with positive results in both feedback AND gameplay changes.
The truth is, randomization actually allows you to provide more weapon and ammo variety while keeping the average shots to kill at a lower number. After all, do the math, which sounds more desirable to the player as a result for shooting a weak ammo type into a non-vital location:
1) you shoot a guy in the arm and sometimes he drops instantly, other times he keeps fighting until hit 3, 4, or 5 times.
2) you shoot a guy in the arm and it always has zero effect until you shoot him 5 times
No one wants to be stuck with the scenario where it will ALWAYS take 5 arm shots to drop someone. That's terrible.
The alternative is somewhat luck based, but the player CAN train to avoid this 100%. If you don't want random damage, stop shooting people in the arm and aim for the head.
This is PVP competitive game, and ultimately the answer to all adverse affects will be to learn to play better, shoot better, get more headshots, and stop being a n00b that shoots people in the foot.
The only third alternative to all this is to use DOTS (damage over time) instead of randomization to create subtlety. In other words, you can have 3 different bullets which each incapacitate in a single hit, but one takes 3 seconds for the enemy to drop from blood loss, while another takes 2 seconds, and another takes only 1 extra second.
It's also possible to combine DOTS and randomization. Either way...pick your poison, you will never have weapon variation if everything always kills in 1-2 hits.
I mostly agree with this, with some minor clarifications:
1) soft armor really should not "lower" rifle damage at all...i.e. a rifle hit that would have been a single shot kill should not become two hits just because you put on soft armor, nor should even a 4 hit kill become a 5 hit kill because you were wearing soft armor. There is a range where soft armor will stop a very low-velocity rifle bullet, but none of the maps are big enough that this should be necessary.
2) Soft armor should be able to stop around 10 hits of 9mm, but subject to some sort of compounding "blunt trauma" penalty. Single rounds should have little effect, but presumably if drilled with a 30rd MP5 mag, the victim will be at least temporarily stunned, the material would have worn down, and some rounds could have possible made it through.
3) Both types of armor should have some system to tally wear, as long as the increased HP damage of a rifle bullet doesn't instantly "wipe" soft armor. In other words, if someone wearing soft armor is pierced in the shoulder with a rifle bullet and survives, their vest should continue to stop some pistol bullets to the stomach
4) IMO rifle plates should be divided into "medium" and "heavy" or just NIJ III and IV because I don't think FMJ should replace AP. Details to follow...
What do you mean by "takes the place of AP"? I am guessing you just mean that it will pierce "light" armor no matter what? Or maybe you're suggesting lower limb damage? Either way I think wording it this way is confusing. Also, many feel that AP does too much torso damage against unarmored opponents, making it excessively good for every situation.
I would not advocate removing [RIFLE] AP because for one thing, it's far more common for military applications than true HP ammo, and while not every can just choose to take it at will, it does still get used for various reasons.
Instead, I would keep (rifle) AP ammo and add NIJIV (ESAPI) armor which stops 1-2 AP rounds before letting anything through. Basically, AP would just deplete more "armor health" points than FMJ, and heavy armor would have a larger pool of "armor health" points than medium armor.
Furthermore, correct flesh damage values for AP will go a long value to balancing it. Right now AP actually upgrades torso damage against flesh, which it should not. In fact, for 5.56 rifles, FMJ deals more damage in an unarmored torso shot than AP because it fragments and AP does not. Straighten all this out, and AP is not longer the ideal solution to every situation - it won't defeat all armor in one shot, and it has no advantage against unarmored enemies.
The problem with HP rounds is simply that it's a misnomer. The US military is not allowed to use literal "hollow points", but open tip match bullets like Mk318 and Mk319 achieve the exact same purpose by fragmenting even in shallow hits like an arm shot or leg shot. Meanwhile, some of the most likely deforming loads in use by insurgents could technically be an FMJ or softpoint bullet that happens to deform in flesh. Moreover, there isn't any specific reason why a "recon" role might realistically be allowed to use these rounds over another role, specifically since the "recon" role doesn't exist in real fireteams and was made up by NWI.
For these reasons, I think the restriction on AP and deforming loads really should be supply point-based rather than role-based. The supply cost simply needs to be jacked up so that the player is actually sacrificing the ability to afford other upgrades by choosing specialized ammo.
After all - that should be the entire point of the supply point system, for force the player to choose one piece of gear over another, not simply choose "all of the above" as their loadout. The problem is that supply costs for certain things are too low, while high supply point caps allow players to amass too many points and afford everything. IMO a cap of 10 supply points for all gametypes is fine.
Lastly, my big footnote to this is that everything I said above about AP only applies to rifle AP. Pistol AP absolutely needs to go. Realistically NO ONE uses it, and the most rare trivial type of ammo possibly represented in the game. Instead, SMG recoil should be lowered, with the tradeoff being that you will never pierce any kind of armor with them because there won't be AP.
Loving all of the ideas, how about the suppressor automatically removes the tracers, but you can also pick subsonic ammo for most guns? Subsonic ammo would contain no tracers and it would have reduced damage. How little? well, that depends to the dev team. Suppressor + subsonic ammo makes rifles unable to be heard for more than, say, 50 meters (of course they can be heard for further away IRL, but the game wont be as big) and pistols, around 20. With those 2 components someone getting shot will only hear the "whooooosh" of the bullets but not the point where they come from. I also think that NWI should do some rebalancing first, its very fun to use the mosin with no attachments and nothing else to remove kebab since mosin its a perfectly fine weapon and it needs nothing with it, but when you want to snipe with an M40, most people just dont, there is nothing but a slight increase in accuracy telling you to get it instead of the MK14.
To fix the problem with the damage model, i think the game should have a TON of hitboxes, each covering an actual vital organ. There's a reason why getting hit in the back is way deadlier than in the front. Using the system of having organs as hitboxes would also allow for people to get shot, getting the bullet make a clean sweep, and still being alive, thanks to the bullet not hitting anything important. Besides, it would make vest protection more realistic and important.
And if you REALLY REALLY want to do something realistic that does not break gameplay, look up at 7.62HighCaliber, that game is a perfect simulation of military equipment, and if its not, it gets VERY near perfection.
As for suppression, i agree that having your character change stance is annoying, but getting suppressed means ♥♥♥♥ in the game, you can stay suppressed during an entire round with the effects and all and still be a MVP. Project Reality does suppression by adding so much blur you cant even shoot, its not realistic, but its close, maybe it should also slow you down or make you faster if you are moving while getting suppressed. As it is now, suppression does near to nothing.
I have also seen that the M249 has very little accuracy, during modmaps i would deploy the bipod and shoot it at around 300 meters away, the recoil is fine, if anything, too little, but the accuracy at that range is nonexistant.
Most subsonic rifle ammo is too weak to cycle and basically converts self-loading rifles to bolt action.
https://youtu.be/8VNcoZiVGhU?t=9m18s
https://youtu.be/pqdIGNU5rbU?t=1m9s
I suppose someone might want to suffer that kind of handicap out of morbid curiosity, but it'd be most practical to simply say that people want a fully-silent weapon, they have to move down to a submachinegun, or learn to live with the supersonic crack of their rifle.
even testing what Jbal has talked about is SUCH a big step in the right direction. I would LOVE to get nitty gritty into new mechanics and changes like those mentioned. Many comp guys have already done at least 10-20 tests on variouse theaters based on those types of thoughts and comp has definitally been pushing towards getting ANY depth in equipment and choice XD
and that is why it makes no sense. its 90% of numbers in the thousands in some cases, and even then its 90% reduction then MULTIPLIED by 50% then MULTIPLIED by 80%. sooooo yea..
Heavy armor RIGHT NOW does not make you live longer vs AP ammo.... so yea it reduces 90% but in the end that means NOTHING.
the way it should be AP needs to be fixed, PERIOD, let AP counter armor fine whatever, but AP should not do the SAME damage to arms as HP in terms moddamage IE bullets to kill.
AP has no downsides and its stupid that way.
Even something as simple as chaning Ap to arms adds almost triple the amount of depth, now 2 ammo types become viable AND 2 types of armor also becoming meaningful.
ap would still counter armor but it wouldn't counter the entire game.
http://letchill.com/calc/ here is the easiest way to show it.
What I meant was, get rid of "AP" as a selectable option, which is not used very much in the real world outside of machineguns, and make the "stock" ammo have the appropriate FMJ characteristics. I am not an expert, but I'm not aware of any AR15 AP ammo that can pierce a III/IV plate, is that correct? I mainly just want to simplify the ammo, and the behavior of "AP" as it is would actually not translate well to this new system I think. And then have the bigger bolt guns with loads capable of piercing plates to give a reason to use the bolt guns other than intentionally making it harder for oneself. So the only ammo choices would be, HP or not (going to leave the name, even if unrealistic more people know hollow point than open tip match), and whether or not to have tracers in your magazine.
yea the only thing you need to worry about is what then becomes the new meta.
in our tests of only 1 ammo type armor became either Super OP or pointless which had dramtic effects on the economy.
I'm not saying I disagree or agree but I do think that the entire system needs to be balanced around itself in a benificial way.
to me I see balancing AP and then working on a progressive economy (like push/skrimish) is the best for competitive.
instead of balacing for a min/max global, you can instead balance on a micro scale which allows MUCh deeper resolution and also depth. There is a reason why comp keeps coming back to that idea season after season and usually only stops becuase of lack of working commands or simply not enough time spent to slam it into the season.