M4A1 vs Mk18

[APSInc]

I wanted to know what the functional difference between the two weapons are. I know they are available to different classes, and that the ammo mods for the Mk18 seem to have different damage models from default (according to the wiki).

However, other than this minor difference, they seem to be stat clones of each other. Same recoil, RoF, selective fire modes, base damage and accuracy, and even the same weight, weight points, and supply cost.

I really like using both weapons, but at the moment I'm confused as to why I might take one over the other (in say, the specialist class).

What are your reasons for taking one over the other, and are there other differences that I'm not aware of?

Discuss!

[Dr.Wholian?]

Originally posted by Dr. Death:

its not about "having to fragment to kill someone" its about "if it fragments it has increased chance of doing flesh damage" Its like that for every rifle bullet.

The wound channel volume for a fragmenting .308 is around 1600 cc's vs. the max 16 cc's in a typical torso shot. So yes, even with larger calibers, the chance of incapacitation is MUCH higher with a fragmenting load than a non-fragmenting one.

Originally posted by Dr. Death:

Well, first of all, the "M193 data" its data from an 5.45, not an 5.56, and unless you made a small mistake, velocity and weight are part of the equation towards energy.

Get your ♥♥♥♥ straight, FFS. M193 is the original Vietnam-era 55gr FMJ for the M16A1. M855 was not adopted until the 80's. 5.45mm FMJ loads are 7n6 and M74.

[Dr. Death]

Originally posted by Dr.Wholian?:

Originally posted by Dr. Death:

its not about "having to fragment to kill someone" its about "if it fragments it has increased chance of doing flesh damage" Its like that for every rifle bullet.

The wound channel volume for a fragmenting .308 is around 1600 cc's vs. the max 16 cc's in a typical torso shot. So yes, even with larger calibers, the chance of incapacitation is MUCH higher with a fragmenting load than a non-fragmenting one.

Originally posted by Dr. Death:

Well, first of all, the "M193 data" its data from an 5.45, not an 5.56, and unless you made a small mistake, velocity and weight are part of the equation towards energy.

Get your ♥♥♥♥ straight, FFS. M193 is the original Vietnam-era 55gr FMJ for the M16A1. M855 was not adopted until the 80's. 5.45mm FMJ loads are 7n6 and M74.

i think you misunderstand me. Deadlylag posted calculations with a 7.62 NATO M80 bullet and M193 5.56 bullet. The data link he posted about the M193 was about the 5.45, not the 5.56.

[Dr.Wholian?]

Ok I see what you're saying. M193 and 7N6 will still be very similar at 1000 yards, at least compared to M80. Not that 1000 yard shots have any relevance to Insurgency anyway.

[Dr. Death]

Originally posted by Dr.Wholian?:

Ok I see what you're saying. M193 and 7N6 will still be very similar at 1000 yards, at least compared to M80. Not that 1000 yard shots have any relevance to Insurgency anyway.

we are not talking about the effectiveness at 1000 yards comparing both either, Deadlylag said that at 1000 yards the 5.56 can still pierce and escape the human body if hit in the chest, i dont think the 5.56 has enough energy to actually make a hole, much less if the bullet fragments

[Dr.Wholian?]

Again, 1000 meters has no pertinence to Insurgency. And IRL, anyone tasked with making long range 5.56 shots is using 77gr Mk262, and NOT FMJ in with 55gr or 62gr... and still not expected to connect at 1000 meters anyway.

[Dr. Death]

Originally posted by Dr.Wholian?:

Again, 1000 meters has no pertinence to Insurgency. And IRL, anyone tasked with making long range 5.56 shots is using 77gr Mk262, and NOT FMJ in with 55gr or 62gr... and still not expected to connect at 1000 meters anyway.

But in real life all soldiers have the same group of ammo, dont know if the PMCs or SF prefer to take different kinds. That talk about long range firefights goes back to the ballistics discussion, that i wish source 2 to allow bigger maps so that long range engagements can have a point in Insurgency. Even then, most soldiers with non-scoped weapons prefer to engage at 300 meters, but i haven't seen anyone try to engage at more than 500, since at that point it gets too hard to hit the enemy.

[cG. KCIV]

Originally posted by Dr. Death:

Originally posted by Dr.Wholian?:

Again, 1000 meters has no pertinence to Insurgency. And IRL, anyone tasked with making long range 5.56 shots is using 77gr Mk262, and NOT FMJ in with 55gr or 62gr... and still not expected to connect at 1000 meters anyway.

But in real life all soldiers have the same group of ammo, dont know if the PMCs or SF prefer to take different kinds. That talk about long range firefights goes back to the ballistics discussion, that i wish source 2 to allow bigger maps so that long range engagements can have a point in Insurgency. Even then, most soldiers with non-scoped weapons prefer to engage at 300 meters, but i haven't seen anyone try to engage at more than 500, since at that point it gets too hard to hit the enemy.

hitscan on big maps is a problem. If source 2 supports projectiles then sure, but the issue is primarily hitscan and lack of attention to balance FOR that hitscan (and ammo types).

[Deadlylag]

Originally posted by Dr.Wholian?:

Originally posted by Deadlylag:

People are so hang up if the 5.56 fragment or not. The people that actual use their weapons to kill other people aren't losing any sleep over it. 7.62x39, 5.45x39, 7.62x51, 300blackout, 6.8spc, 6.5 grendel, 9mm, 357 mag, 45 ACP, 40S&W, ect doesn't fragment. They all do fine killing real life people. Yet somehow the 5.56 must fragment to actually kill someone. That's ridiculous.

Hitting a target at over 1000 yards with a mk.18 still have enough velocity to cut through an adult male. It doesn't need fragment to kill. Fragmentation increase the chance of instant incapacitation but it doesn't need it to do it.

First of all, there are fragmenting loads available in all the calibers you just mentioned, so whether or not they fragment depends entirely on the circumstances and availability of ammo in those situations. For a home defense, law enforcement, or contractor work there's a good chance the shooter in question has opted not to use FMJ, in which case fragmenting OTM loads are pretty much a no-brainer. The U.S. military has Mk319, which is a 7.62x51mm load, which is basically a bigger version of the 5.56 Mk318 and thus optimized for early, consistent fragmentation.

The reason most US SF don't care about deficiencies in fragmentation of the Mk18 or Mk17 is because if they are elite enough to be issued those rifles, they are most likely issued Mk318 or Mk319 as well.

All bullet can be made o fragment but tell me which standard wildly use military load fragment? As far as I know only the 5.56 NATO designed to fragment. Bullet fragment is not a big concern in the military. It not a big issue at all. It a nice bonus but it does not need it to incapacitate.

Elite units do not use second rate gears. They put their life on the line more than a common GI. They go into places where most GI won't come back out alive. They need to know what works and what's not. They use the best gears available because they life is worth a lot more.

M855 and M193 does not fragment reliably if at all in Mk.18. Yet these elite units made the Mk.18 as their primary weapon. Why is that? Because it better than their M4A1. They can run it faster and still have the ability to take out targets over 1000 yards.

[Deadlylag]

Originally posted by Dr.Wholian?:

Originally posted by Dr. Death:

its not about "having to fragment to kill someone" its about "if it fragments it has increased chance of doing flesh damage" Its like that for every rifle bullet.

The wound channel volume for a fragmenting .308 is around 1600 cc's vs. the max 16 cc's in a typical torso shot. So yes, even with larger calibers, the chance of incapacitation is MUCH higher with a fragmenting load than a non-fragmenting one.

Originally posted by Dr. Death:

Well, first of all, the "M193 data" its data from an 5.45, not an 5.56, and unless you made a small mistake, velocity and weight are part of the equation towards energy.

Get your ♥♥♥♥ straight, FFS. M193 is the original Vietnam-era 55gr FMJ for the M16A1. M855 was not adopted until the 80's. 5.45mm FMJ loads are 7n6 and M74.

The M193 is superior to the M855 in every way except for shooting long distance. That because the m855 is a heavier and have a better BC. Everybody knows this that understand basic ballistic. It faster and penetrate armor better than M855 and M80.

The M193 is still use in the US military.

[Deadlylag]

Originally posted by Dr. Death:

Originally posted by Dr.Wholian?:

The wound channel volume for a fragmenting .308 is around 1600 cc's vs. the max 16 cc's in a typical torso shot. So yes, even with larger calibers, the chance of incapacitation is MUCH higher with a fragmenting load than a non-fragmenting one.


Get your ♥♥♥♥ straight, FFS. M193 is the original Vietnam-era 55gr FMJ for the M16A1. M855 was not adopted until the 80's. 5.45mm FMJ loads are 7n6 and M74.

i think you misunderstand me. Deadlylag posted calculations with a 7.62 NATO M80 bullet and M193 5.56 bullet. The data link he posted about the M193 was about the 5.45, not the 5.56.

Ops my fault. I used one of link by mistake. Here is m193 data. It around the same.

Copy and past the link because the steam forum left out the last part.
http://www.shooterscalculator.com/ballistic-trajectory-chart.php?pl=M193&presets=&df=G7&bc=.243&bw=55&vi=3165&zr=100&sh=1.5&sa=0&ws=10&wa=90&ssb=on&cr=1000&ss=25&chartColumns=Range~yd%3BElevation~in%3BElevation~MOA~FBFFF5%3BElevation~MIL%3BWindage~in%3BWindage~MOA~FBFFF5%3BWindage~MIL%3BTime~s%3BEnergy~ft.lbf%3BVel[x%2By]~ft%2Fs&lbl=M193&submitst=+Create+Chart+

Here is the data load:
http://www.ar15.com/content/page.html?id=434

BC
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_16/145479_andamp__34_Standardandamp__34__Ballistic_Coefficient_for_M193__.html

[Dr.Wholian?]

Originally posted by Deadlylag:

All bullet can be made o fragment but tell me which standard wildly use military load fragment? As far as I know only the 5.56 NATO designed to fragment.

Yes, 5.56mm NATO is the first caliber in which FMJ loads frequently fragmented, and it's the standard caliber of the majority of the western world. However, there are fragmenting loads in other calibers, for example the notorious AB22 DAG (7.62x51) and 7N1 (7.62x54mm). M118 LR also has some random chance to fragment, as well as steel jacket M80 FMJ.

[Dr.Wholian?]

Originally posted by Deadlylag:

Bullet fragment is not a big concern in the military. It not a big issue at all. It a nice bonus but it does not need it to incapacitate.

On the contrary, an overwhelming amount of resources have been poured into studying the fragmentary behavior or 5.56 bullets in recent decades, culminating inthe JSWB-IPT study which revealed angle attack and fleet yaw as the primary obstacles to M855 fragmentation. Consequently, the Mk318 round was developed to eliminate AOA, fleet yaw, and velocity dependancies, and then it was recreated in 7.62 format with Mk319. Even M855A1 was designed to improve fragmentation over M855.

Originally posted by Deadlylag:

M855 and M193 does not fragment reliably if at all in Mk.18. Yet these elite units made the Mk.18 as their primary weapon. Why is that?

Because elite units DO NOT USE M855 or M193 in their Mk18's, as has already been explained to you.

Through the early to mid 2000's, Mk262 was used by SF units to overcome the shortcomings of SBR's, because it was discovered to fragment out to a lower velocity and greater distances. A Mk18 gets 50 meters of reliable fragmentation from Mk262, which is equal to an M4 using M855.

In the late 00's, Mk318 was developed to surpass performance of Mk262, extending the fragmentation of a Mk18 out to 100 meters, and this quickly became the standard load used with SF.

Originally posted by Deadlylag:

Elite units do not use second rate gears. They put their life on the line more than a common GI. They go into places where most GI won't come back out alive. They need to know what works and what's not. They use the best gears available because they life is worth a lot more.

You pretty much shut your own argument down here. If fragmentation is not a concern in the military, then why are elite units all using Mk318 and Mk319 instead of M855 or M80? SOCOM has gone out of their way to virtually eliminate any chance that bullets from Mk17's and Mk18's will ever fail to fragment.

[Dr.Wholian?]

Moreover, you are still missing the point that Insurgency's loadout system is entirely based around varying ammo types, regardless of what you think is a concern. If there is going to be a choice between varying weapons and ammo types, then obviously the differences in terminal performance should be included, or else there's no point.

Your personal threshold for what is "lethal enough" is irrelevant. Insurgency is a tactical game where every loadout decision is supposed to have a tactical component, including ammo choice. Therefore, different ammo loads will lie on a sliding scale of lethality, ESPECIALLY for weapons with performance deficiencies like the Mk18.

I have all this implemented in my mod and it's really not that difficult to understand. Damage is scaled according to the distance, shot location, ammo type, and weapon, as it should be. Instead of having generic titles like "AP" and "HP", all milspec loads are provided with their proper titles (you don't see the title for M855, because it's the default option).

When you use the M4 with M855, damage is reduced after 50 meters due to the lack of fragmentation. When you use the Mk18 with M855, damage at the muzzle is similar to 50 meter M4 damage, because the velocity, energy, and lack of fragmentation is the same. If you don't like this performance, it is up to you to choose a better ammo type, just like in real life. If you want the best damage for Mk18, you should be using Mk262 or Mk318 instead of cheaping out with M855, just like the pros do.

In no way does it make sense to magically give the Mk18 FMJ damage for a 14.5" barrel when it does not have a 14.5" barrel. If you want 14.5" damage, you will need to take an M4, and if you want long range fragmentation from the Mk18, you will need to use Mk262 or Mk318. It's really not that tough to understand.

[Deadlylag]

Originally posted by Dr. Death:

Originally posted by Dr.Wholian?:

Ok I see what you're saying. M193 and 7N6 will still be very similar at 1000 yards, at least compared to M80. Not that 1000 yard shots have any relevance to Insurgency anyway.

we are not talking about the effectiveness at 1000 yards comparing both either, Deadlylag said that at 1000 yards the 5.56 can still pierce and escape the human body if hit in the chest, i dont think the 5.56 has enough energy to actually make a hole, much less if the bullet fragments

You confuse energy with penetration. Energy does not equal penetration.

Let me show you the deference between high energy vs high velocity.

NIJ lvl 3 body armor is not rated to stop 5.56. It is rated to stop M80 (7.62NATO). That's because 5.56 have a much higher velocity than M80. Here is real life testing.

NIJ rated lvl 3 AR500 armor vs 5.56. M193 vs M855 @ 7 yards

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMYkEMhPsO8

@25
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpPVhbzPg2w

Now M80 with the same body armor.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPUJvxfeOfU

Now notice what happen in these video because the same body armor and the same mounting was used. The 5.56 penetrate the lvl 3 armor without much problem. The M80 which have twice the energy as the 5.56 did not penetrate but knock the plate down really hard.

Energy knock thing down like reactive targets while velocity penetrate.

Lvl 3+ armor design to defeat 5.56. So the tester used 22-250 which is a 22 cal and very very fast. It use Hornady VMAX ballistic tip. The tip is made out of plastic to decrease penetration. It defeated the armor @ 25 yards without problems.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QifXqu0qDiI

VMAX
http://www.hornady.com/store/223-Rem-53-gr-V-MAX-Superformance/

Same lvl 3+ Armor vs 4 7.62 NATO AP rounds @ 5 yards. None penetrated.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jB1uq1T9SHg

Lvl IV armor is pretty impressive tho. Going to buy one really soon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S076VV3x_P8

[Deadlylag]

Originally posted by Dr.Wholian?:

Originally posted by Deadlylag:

All bullet can be made o fragment but tell me which standard wildly use military load fragment? As far as I know only the 5.56 NATO designed to fragment.

Yes, 5.56mm NATO is the first caliber in which FMJ loads frequently fragmented, and it's the standard caliber of the majority of the western world. However, there are fragmenting loads in other calibers, for example the notorious AB22 DAG (7.62x51) and 7N1 (7.62x54mm). M118 LR also has some random chance to fragment, as well as steel jacket M80 FMJ.

Are they in widely used ammo? No they are not.