Smoke grenades are a serious problem in co-op.

[My man with the beans]

I've been playing quite a bit of co-op the last few nights and I've noticed that smoke grenades are the absolute worst with the bots. There is absolutely no balance or effect by them.

A lot of new players throw the smoke grenades thinking that the AI won't be able to see through it. We'll I've played hundreds of games and I've NEVER once seen AI get affected by smoke in a game. Insurgency is the same case. The bot's shoot right through the smoke. I've died many times being shot through the smoke by pin point accuracy from a bot.

Why did you, the developers, give the bots the ability to throw smoke if they can shoot right through it as if it's not even there?

I can show you a lot of video evidence of this and I'm sure many co-op players can attest to this. Is it that the source engine doesn't have the capability for AI to detect where smoke is and limit it's accuracy when looking at the smoke?

[Mittens]

Yeah, I had this happen the other day playing co-op. Walked behind some smoke thinking I would be safe, bots sniped me anyway.
It would be super hard to code bots that are able to know if someone is obscured by alpha planes like smoke/bushes, so it probably would just be better to disarm smokes in co-op

[ZoomZoomAvenger]

probably wouldnt be that difficult actually. I would think it would be programmed more like this: someone throws smoke, this tells the server there is a zone of smoke there and that zone reduces bot accuracy by x% if A) the zone is within their vision cone, and/or B) the target is within or behind the smoke zone in relation to the bot's vision cone. same thing could apply to bushes and stuff. has nothing to do with what the object is made up of of and more to do with the back end.

[Mailstorm]

Originally posted by ZoomZoomAvenger:

probably wouldnt be that difficult actually. I would think it would be programmed more like this: someone throws smoke, this tells the server there is a zone of smoke there and that zone reduces bot accuracy by x% if A) the zone is within their vision cone, and/or B) the target is within or behind the smoke zone in relation to the bot's vision cone. same thing could apply to bushes and stuff. has nothing to do with what the object is made up of of and more to do with the back end.

Coding AI is a little more difficult than you think.

[jballou]

Originally posted by Mailstorm:

Coding AI is a little more difficult than you think.

It's really not, at least in this respect. I can write the pseudocode to resolve this, and a lot of other issues, quite easily. The translation to C++ for the game to implement it would be harder, but not insurmountable by any means. Once you know what to measure, and how to act upon that data, the code sort of writes itself. We're not looking to majorly impact how the bots work, just modify the code that scans for targets to act a little more reasonably, and it wouldn't really be an impact on performance either.

[[57th] AngryHatter]

Originally posted by =7Cav=CPL.Ballou.J:

Originally posted by Mailstorm:

Coding AI is a little more difficult than you think.

It's really not, at least in this respect. I can write the pseudocode to resolve this, and a lot of other issues, quite easily. The translation to C++ for the game to implement it would be harder, but not insurmountable by any means. Once you know what to measure, and how to act upon that data, the code sort of writes itself. We're not looking to majorly impact how the bots work, just modify the code that scans for targets to act a little more reasonably, and it wouldn't really be an impact on performance either.

Bwahahahahaha

[Schu]

Originally posted by =7Cav=CPL.Ballou.J:

Originally posted by Mailstorm:

Coding AI is a little more difficult than you think.

It's really not, at least in this respect. I can write the pseudocode to resolve this, and a lot of other issues, quite easily. The translation to C++ for the game to implement it would be harder, but not insurmountable by any means. Once you know what to measure, and how to act upon that data, the code sort of writes itself. We're not looking to majorly impact how the bots work, just modify the code that scans for targets to act a little more reasonably, and it wouldn't really be an impact on performance either.

Hi. I'm a programmer. Please don't comment on things you don't know about. You are very very wrong.

[Miles (Tails) Prower]

I didn't saw that, smokes even saved me a lot.
Example #1: revolt. Remember that stairs from the right from bravo? I just smoke entrance and sit at the corner. Insurgents didn't spot me. I even was blamed for no shooting at these guys (this tolds me some kids).
Example #2: attraction. Even in real life nobody will do that, but it's a game, so why not to try some strategy? Ministry, main entrance on Alpha cache. Smoking this entrance and shootin from non-silence weapon will attract enemy. If you try to stand a front, you can can see some figure, coming from smoke. Give you additional 1-2 second to aim.

The only thing I can say about your problem, what it's only effective in a center of smoking.

That's all! Have a nice day!

[< blank >]

We need to start hanging up some No Smoking signs. I've been wounded, even killed, because of second hand smoke. Incosiderate smokers are the worst.

[jballou]

Originally posted by Schu:

Hi. I'm a programmer. Please don't comment on things you don't know about. You are very very wrong.

I may not be a developer by trade, but as someone who has been modding this game for almost a year, including developing a number of Sourcemod plugins and CVAR changes to modify bot behavior, it's a fair bet that I am more knowledgeable than you are on this specific subject. That said, the bots already have a visual cone check, where the game looks for targetable players. I have seen code which is used in other Source games by the same bot library, and it looks straightforward to me to adjust that to include a check for any smoke particle effects in the target cone. The developers have already added a brush type to occulde the bot's visual check area, so the basic concept of using objects to impact bot behavior is actually already done. So, while I'd welcome your input as a programmer to help come up with ideas to solve the problem, I would ask you to not just post to be negative without adding anything useful to the conversation. Thanks.

[RedShadow]

The weeds/sparse bushes in which you can hide near the water (can't remember the map) as the same properties as the smoke cloud and effectively hides you unless a tango is near you. So in the end, I kinda disagree that the smoke doesn't work. It does creates a kinda wall. If you are in it, I don't know as I never do that. Most people don't use smoke nades correctly anyway:

Against the AI, distance is your friend since they rush at you. Throwing smoke on incoming tangos will just make them have contact with you on a closer distance which is bad for the team.
Smoke as to be used for YOU to advance against enemy snipers and gunners. And that's it. Defending using a smoke is silly. But it looks like a lot of people don't realize this.

And it's not just smokes, but the molly and incendiary as well: they obscure my vision with their flames/sparks and stuff. Also when playing against the AI it goes now Left4Dead style: spam nades to stairs and stuff and wait for bots to die. It used to be much better before, you really had to defend. I'm wondering when the servers admins will start to ban all of these nades.

As for the coding part, I kinda agree it's not that complicated once the smoke cloud is fully there. The smoke effect already spawns 3D or lots of 2D objects. It's just a matter of making them opaque. However building the smoke expansion, gradually obscuring... that I have no idea how they could achieve that easily.

[Hazumin]

Agreed with RedShadow partly. I mean why throw smokes at enemies when they (the smokes) are specifically invented just to provide temporary cover for yourself or your teammates. You're just helping out the enemy instead. I've been in many situation where there is little to no cover with enemy troops advancing. So I just pop a smoke somewhere in open cover, get in the smoke (somewhere on the edge of the smoke where visibility is blurred but I still can make out my surroundings), and pick them off one by one without them even noticing me. Unfortunately, many players don't understand this concept even those who claimed to be a vet. I even got banned for excessive smoking with no question asked. Explaining it to them just made them wonder about my sanity. "They are just bots" they said.


Just try the damned thing out before making a statement about how useless the smokes are because they are unarguably the best grenade next to flashbangs for pve in my opinion hands down!

[RedShadow]

Originally posted by Anonymous_Neko:

Agreed with RedShadow partly. I mean why throw smokes at enemies when they (the smokes) are specifically invented just to provide temporary cover for yourself or your teammates. You're just helping out the enemy instead. I've been in many situation where there is little to no cover with enemy troops advancing. So I just pop a smoke somewhere in open cover, get in the smoke (somewhere on the edge of the smoke where visibility is blurred but I still can make out my surroundings), and pick them off one by one without them even noticing me. Unfortunately, many players don't understand this concept even those who claimed to be a vet. I even got banned for excessive smoking with no question asked. Explaining it to them just made them wonder about my sanity. "They are just bots" they said.


Just try the damned thing out before making a statement about how useless the smokes are because they are unarguably the best grenade next to flashbangs for pve in my opinion hands down!

I understand your point. But you can't do that against humans because they'll see you as well. So, doing this against the bots is like glitching. Just like when someone hides in the bushes/weed and pick 'em one by one.

Aside from glitching, it will also prevent people like me that are at the back from helping you. Because I won't see shît. That will prevent other players as well to go around you as they can't see what's in front. You basically block all your team that will wait for the smoke to dissipate before doing anything.
So you'll eventually die because you are basically playing alone against wave of enemies, and then the bots will appear outta the smoke from everywhere too close, are råpe the rest us. And make us kick you out from the game.

You don't use smoke nade properly (in a realistic way) and that's your very behavior I am ranting against. Hence why I'd like a smoke ban in coop :/

[Hazumin]

Originally posted by RedShadow:

I understand your point. But you can't do that against humans because they'll see you as well. So, doing this against the bots is like glitching. Just like when someone hides in the bushes/weed and pick 'em one by one.

Aside from glitching, it will also prevent people like me that are at the back from helping you. Because I won't see shît. That will prevent other players as well to go around you as they can't see what's in front. You basically block all your team that will wait for the smoke to dissipate before doing anything.
So you'll eventually die because you are basically playing alone against wave of enemies, and then the bots will appear outta the smoke from everywhere too close, are råpe the rest us. And make us kick you out from the game.

You don't use smoke nade properly (in a realistic way) and that's your very behavior I am ranting against. Hence why I'd like a smoke ban in coop :/

Yup, I understand. I just learned about it several days ago (I just got back into Insurgency this month) about my team complaining not being able to see what's in front of them because of the smokes. Which is why whenever I join a server I will tell them beforehand that I will be throwing smokes more often in this game and ask if they are okay with it. I also avoid throwing smokes in narrow hallways and corridors (flashbangs work better in those areas anyway) and only use them in open, large areas such as buhriz, peak, heights and probably when we're hunkered down. Of course, I'm doing it solo just to avoid pissing off my mates since it can't be helped anyway.

Though I still think smoke ban is unnecessary because the smokes are still essential to snipers and marksmen on overwatch duty since bloody AI bots have the ability to literally take you down from the other side of the map making towers and high vantage points useless for them to take advantage from. These bots' inhumane ability will even out the "glitching through smokes and weeds" that you mentioned. Smoke ban should have a limit or a line that should not be crossed for example the thrower's intention of applying a smoke is not to burden his teammates or to get them killed.

Btw, insurgents, for some reason, are attracted to smokes be it theirs or the security's. Definitely good distraction/decoy material.

[RedShadow]

Originally posted by Anonymous_Neko:

Yup, I understand. I just learned about it several days ago (I just got back into Insurgency this month) about my team complaining not being able to see what's in front of them because of the smokes. Which is why whenever I join a server I will tell them beforehand that I will be throwing smokes more often in this game and ask if they are okay with it. I also avoid throwing smokes in narrow hallways and corridors (flashbangs work better in those areas anyway) and only use them in open, large areas such as buhriz, peak, heights and probably when we're hunkered down. Of course, I'm doing it solo just to avoid pissing off my mates since it can't be helped anyway.

Though I still think smoke ban is unnecessary because the smokes are still essential to snipers and marksmen on overwatch duty since bloody AI bots have the ability to literally take you down from the other side of the map making towers and high vantage points useless for them to take advantage from. These bots' inhumane ability will even out the "glitching through smokes and weeds" that you mentioned. Smoke ban should have a limit or a line that should not be crossed for example the thrower's intention of applying a smoke is not to burden his teammates or to get them killed.

Btw, insurgents, for some reason, are attracted to smokes be it theirs or the security's. Definitely good distraction/decoy material.

Well then that's good of you

I think banning smoke is extreme of course, you being a reasonable man it's okay, but others being jerks and not giving a shît whether or not this screws their teamates: that's the issue.

But yeah bot's AI can be too OP sometimes. You're right on the fact that you can 'even it out' doing glitchy things... hmmmm.

I was usure bots were attracted to the smoke I definitely noticed something but... now you confirmed it ahah. Stupid bots.

[76561198151675867]

I'd rather my teammates spammed ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ of smoke than block choke points we have to move through with molotovs.