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In KoF'98 it was just QCFHCB+P. A pretty standard motion for most characters. Why make it more complicated?
But you can safely do it by buffering the motion just as you're doing any other move. Or set it up by doing the super as you recover from your combo. Crouching D and Moon Slasher have enough recovery for you to buffer the super without jumping - you can combo into c.D off a Heart Attack, and Moon Slash off a c.A. You can also just whiff a c.D alone, or hyper jump backwards to do the motion in the air.
Hell, if you are quick enough, you can even do a close D into Awakening, and still have the frames to combo a crouching B afterwards. I just tried it and it works.
As for the Deadly Rave, it can look rough, but it's just 632146+ACD, 2 attacks of each button in order from A to D, and 214+CD. If anything, Athena's Psycho Medley is a tad bit more complicated.
K's MAX 2 comes pretty natural after a couple successful tries. Think of it as quickly sliding your finger from C to A.
Blue Mary's inputs are all traditional ones, only the Dynamite Swing is different. Not sure what about her is complicated. I think it's just that she is bad in this game, sadly.
I really wish she was good, but her matchups against a lot of the cast are rather uphill fights.
On Vice's Overkill input, I can agree (in this particular game at least, since in XIII and XIV you can combo into Overkill off a Mayhem, but in 2002UM you can only use it by itself).
I suppose that since it's a very strong air grab, it's complicated to do on purpose, so that you can't just pull it off on reflex. Vice is enough of a scary monster as is, can't imagine what it'd be like if that down input wasn't in the motion.
TL;DR With very few exceptions, the moves in this game aren't complicated if you find an efficient way to perform them.
But my point is why do they have to be complicated in the first place? Why can't Leona's Max 2 just be QCB+LPSP? It's not like she's using that motion for anything else, and you can combo into this just as easier (actually probably much easier) than the bizarre motion they gave her.
Deadly Rave used to just go off on its own. Why change it? It's not like the skill is any different than it used to be, it's just now there are a lot more steps to it and if you mess it up, you don't get the full output. I can't see any reason for the change, other than the devs thought Geese was too popular and wanted to make fewer people play him by weeding out players who aren't good at memorizing or executing long strings of combos.
Mary's Dynamite swing is a much different and more complicated command than it was in previous KoFs. And Infinity Rose is basically an enhanced Splash Rose. Why not just use the same command for Splash Rose? It's not being used for anything else.
K's Crimson Star Road is hard. It doesn't look like it should be, it seems like a simple enough motion. But for me, it is. I can only get it to go off 50% of the time. Nothing is more frusterating in a fighting game than entering a command expecting the character to do one thing and then the character doing something completely different. Especially if you're looking to fight Igniz at the end and have to finish off the last guy with it. Why couldn't it just be 2 QCB+LPSP, just like I suggested for Leona? K's not using the motion for anything and it's much easier to do.
And as bad as Crimson Star Road is, Ryo's Geki Ryuuko Ranbu is even worse. I've NEVER pulled this off, not even in practice mode. Luckily he has two Max 2's, so I use Retsu Ryuuko Ranbu instead. I can pull this move off pretty much 100% of the time when I want to. And wouldn't you know it, the motion is a traditional QCFHCB+LPSP that so many other characters share.
Like I said before, I can't help but feel that the skill level in this revolves less around "When to use this move" and more around "Can you use this move at all?"
I think you're begging the question by assuming that they are "complicated" in the first place. It's a starting point I disagree with. You find them "complicated" in the sense that you're comparing them to previous games and aren't looking at them for themselves.
There's a difference between being slightly more skill-demanding (which doesn't necessarily make it difficult as it can still be offset by a moment of practice), being straight-up tough, like the Star input in Arcana Heart, or just rude, like Ryo's RR Destroy where I agree with you.
Deadly Rave has gotten more inputs but the increase in difficulty doesn't really exist when you get it in your muscle memory. It's not asking you to do a 360º instead of a QCF. It's asking you to input 2 attacks of each button in quick succession. It's not even a matter of actual memory, just of getting it into your reflexes in training mode.
It's not a tough string - you just have to recognize the sections it is divided in, and work your way up. If a player can't properly memorize it because they are looking at the input as a whole single thing instead of dividing it in sections, then that's on them for having inefficient methods.
Leona's MAX 2 has you do a QCF and then a HCB before you press both kicks, indeed - with a bit of trying you can easily find out it is nothing otherwordly.
Same with Blue Mary's Dynamite Swing. Input leniency makes it very easy to do even on reflex off two A's. K's 236+A-C is fairly lenient and can be practiced, as opposed to Ryo's which is indeed near impossible to do. And I'm only calling it "near impossible" because the devs bothered to put it in the move list, else I'd wonder if the move existed at all.
You seem to be very convinced that the question is "why change them and make them complicated". When you think like that, you already set yourself up for a mindset where they necessarily have to be complicated. That question could also be "why not change" and it'd still be a frame of mind with the same flaws.
I get that it's your opinion, of course. These are just my thoughts regarding the foundation on which you've built it. I'm fine doing pretty much any move across KOF, even if I had massive amounts of trouble getting into them as a Marvel player, where you're mostly concerned with a QCF and two buttons for supers. But I can do any move just fine, and if someone with my background could, then anyone can. Except Smash players, maybe.
I don't know what you're playing the game with and how that affects your ability to execute these moves, but hopefully you find your way to getting them right at a much higher rate if you put yourself to practicing them. Except RR Destroy. That one sucks.
I misspoke on Leona. It's not her MAX 2 itself that I have a problem with. It's her awakening.
Regarding Mary's Dynamite Swing, regardless of whether you think it's complicated or not, the fact is it's still different. Why change it at all? It wasn't hard to perform before, and this new command doesn't make it any easier or fundamentally change the result at all. The only reason to change it that I can think of is because the devs really wanted to screw over Blue Mary players in the arcade who went in thinking they could do the move with a command they were familiar with, only to find it doesn't work.
I've tried with K'. But like I said, for me at least it's a highly unreliable skill. If it wasn't for the fact that you HAVE to use it to fight Igniz, I wouldn't use it at all. I certainly wouldn't want to try it in an online match against a skilled opponent, when a chance to fail doing the move I want could cost me the entire match.
I'm playing on a XBOX1 controller. It's not ideal (PS's D-PAD is much more ideal for fighting games IMO), but I can do the familiar, older motions (QCFHCB, 2 x QCF, etc.) pretty regularly without messing up.
Oh, got you then. Well, I already talked about that in my first post, I don't find it complicated, I just consider it as not supposed to be done raw.
Yeah, that's what I'm referring to when I talk about mindsets - that "only reason" you can think of shows you have a bias against the devs, and you interpret the changes through that lens. Consider the question, "why not change if it doesn't make it any harder or fundamentally change the result at all? It's a new game, may as well make it feel different."
It's opinions at that point. To me, the change doesn't have to be welcomed or rejected, it's just different, and can be easily adapted to. That's about as far as I can get talking about it, since I already know and respect how you feel about it.
You "have" to? How? Fighting Igniz is a whole different topic, though if it were down to a matter of just using a particular move on him, I'd think there's something severely wrong with the way the fight is being approached. Even if we consider Igniz is an SNK Boss with all that the title implies. I do get what you're saying, though.
Aaaaaaah, I see. I play on an Xbox 360 pad! I have to agree with you wholeheartedly, sometimes I wish the d-pad had a consciousness I could throw my insults at, for real. Especially since Whip requires very precise timing with super-cancelling her Boomerang Shot and sometimes even if I do it properly, the game won't want to register it because the dpad didn't feel like giving it the diagonal input in the QCF.
But it does make it fundamentally harder. Having to do the motion and press the buttons once is always going to be easier than having to do the motion and press the buttons multiple times in a specific order.
It's not that change is necessarily a bad thing. Like I didn't mind charge Robert as much as other people seemed to back in '99 and '00. And of course, Kyo became a much better character all around when they changed him between '95 and '96. But those changes were to the moves themselves, that fundamentally changed the way the characters played. And the new moves they gained were based motions players would be familiar with, since other characters had similar commands.
In 2002 it seems like the opposite happened: familiar moves were given new motions that (most) other characters don't have. This doesn't actually add anything to the gameplay or fundamentally change how the character plays. it just forces longtime players to relearn the characters they were familiar with.
I'm not talking about the fight with Igniz itself, I'm talking about the requirements to fight him in the first place. In order to face Igniz, you have to finish off the final stage 5 opponent with a Max 2.
Yeah I do kinda hate the XBOX D-pad for fighting games. The PS3 or PS4 controllers have a much better D-pad that makes it easier to avoid accidentally pressing diagonals.
I have to digress again when you imply combinations of buttons (as opposed to a single button press) suddenly make doing a move fundamentally harder. They do not. You make the difficulty gap seem much more relevant than it actually is. "Harder" is relative - I have to state myself as believing that there's nothing stopping anyone from learning these inputs with a bit of practice. Literally a bit. And then the perceived "difficulty" suddenly vanishes because you learned to do a little sequence after the initial hit.
You are still stuck comparing the inputs to previous games and judging based on those comparisons. So long as you don't get out of that mindset, you'll have a hard time moving on from them. You went from mentioning very specific examples to "familiar moves", which I'd deem an inaccurate generalization. If you look at 2002UM's inputs for what they are, you'd realize that they can all be reliably performed in their own way, with one or two exceptions at most like Ryo's MAX 2.
Real difficulty is in the speed and agility required even in the most efficient methods, not in whether you suddenly have to do an HCB on top of your QCF. Or if you have to do up and down thrice in a row. The first is a common KOF motion, and the second is a literal three vertical rolls of the thumb. Deadly Rave and Psycho Medley both have their own followable timings, at that. Same with Dynamite Swing. Hell, unless you like doing it as a raw super (which really, who does?), her f+A may as well exist just for the sole purpose of safely comboing into it.
I guarantee you that you'll have a harder time comboing a Hundred Hand Slap off an LP in Street Fighter than you'll have comboing Daimon's Super Earth Mover off a close D. And this is with the Hundred Hand Slap not even having an actual motion.
Also, since you only have to finish the opponent team's final character with it - which makes life much easier - you can just use another character's MAX 2. Maxima's is no different to Charlie's Sonic Break, which is about as basic of a charge super as it gets.
I get the feeling you just don't like the motions in this game and wished they were more similar to older games. Or you just want the game to be more accessible. That's obviously fine, but the way you present it as something more than an opinion feels very far-fetched and fundamentalist. Close-minded to say the least. I'm gonna be honest with you, I don't think your opinions really reflect "longtime players" or "players" in plural for that matter at all. These are the kind to practice and adapt. And it doesn't get any more vocal than hardcore FG players if something is legitimately wrong.
You're literally the first and only person I've seen say what you say. I'd say let's agree to disagree.