Sage Kugelblitz with mark of the archer is hilarious

[Keyen]

Step 1: Use sage and equip mark of the archer
Step 2: Pick kugelblitz
Step 3: Survive until you can pick the +0.15 base attack/s (abuse the shock). Obviously, double it.
Step 4: Congratulation, your kugelblitz, on top of being cast much faster, proc a nova every 0.1m.

https://i.imgur.com/h4vxDbI.png
https://i.imgur.com/PEfmz58.png

[Mutteri]

This is ridiculous :D

[geo981010]

Originally posted by 🌺💗Tazzunda💗🌺:

For anyone that likes big dmg or learning in general....

The damage doesn't come from the shockwave itself. The shockwave has a chance to apply electrify and as the shockwave is triggering every 0.1m of movement, electrify reaches max stacks almost instantly. This results in 3k electrify ticks every application thereafter. Which is basically an insta-kill.

If you want to bolster the speed of kills (and thus create more mob spawns), amplify your electrify chance along with whatever build you are doing.

If anyone breaks a record with it post in here: https://steamcommunity.com/app/2218750/discussions/5/4036977429236245180/

Would love to see it!

The followup question to your excellent info - why does this trait on the Sage cause the shockwave to proc almost continually? I am assuming this is only bugged for Sage, so why doesn't it work for other chars who take the trait?

[WildeGoose]

Originally posted by geo981010:

Originally posted by 🌺💗Tazzunda💗🌺:

For anyone that likes big dmg or learning in general....

The damage doesn't come from the shockwave itself. The shockwave has a chance to apply electrify and as the shockwave is triggering every 0.1m of movement, electrify reaches max stacks almost instantly. This results in 3k electrify ticks every application thereafter. Which is basically an insta-kill.

If you want to bolster the speed of kills (and thus create more mob spawns), amplify your electrify chance along with whatever build you are doing.

If anyone breaks a record with it post in here: https://steamcommunity.com/app/2218750/discussions/5/4036977429236245180/

Would love to see it!

The followup question to your excellent info - why does this trait on the Sage cause the shockwave to proc almost continually? I am assuming this is only bugged for Sage, so why doesn't it work for other chars who take the trait?

The trait in question applies only to main weapon attacks. Sage is the only character that can apply those traits to an ability (the one he picks upon run start). No other character is getting a free flat +.30s tick speed to their shockwaves that is then multiplied by all the attack speed percentages as well.

[🌺💗Tazzamorous💗🌺]

Originally posted by WildeGoose:

The trait in question applies only to main weapon attacks. Sage is the only character that can apply those traits to an ability (the one he picks upon run start). No other character is getting a free flat +.30s tick speed to their shockwaves that is then multiplied by all the attack speed percentages as well.

You are completely correct.

However, I don't understand why you felt the need to mention this? This whole thread is about taking +0.30/s from the archer mark, with sage, and so my comment should be taken with that context in mind.

I'm just derpin' nevermind.

[🌺💗Tazzamorous💗🌺]

EDIT 24-03-11: THIS HAS BEEN FIXED. THE SHOCKWAVE TRIGGER DISTANCE WORKS PROPERLY NOW.

Originally posted by geo981010:

The followup question to your excellent info - why does this trait on the Sage cause the shockwave to proc almost continually? I am assuming this is only bugged for Sage, so why doesn't it work for other chars who take the trait?

The shockwave triggers based on distance (reducing from a base of 5m) and it is affected by attack speed. This means that any +attack speed will reduce the overall distance needed. Typically, this is just a percentage but thanks to one (exactly one) trait we can affect the base value as well.

So, we would expect that something with a low base attack speed (0.2/s) would scale really hard with any +base attack speed. However, Kugelblitz shockwave takes it too far. When we reverb the +0.15 the normal attack speed behaves as expected. The shockwave would typically have an expected value (assuming you have a bunch of +%atk speed) like 1m-2m trigger distance. However, it immediately goes to 0.1m. This is basically a bug in the code where it is defaulting to a different method (based on hit-count, that has a default value of 90) because it doesn't know what to do with the +0.15/s trait.

This results in the conversion that normally looks like (1 / 0.2) = 5m
...becoming (1 / 90) = 0.1111m.

It's just broken.

***COMPLEX EXPLANATION. SKIP THIS IF YOU DON'T LIKE TECHNICAL****

Part A (Differing Units): Attack speeds are almost always represented as X attacks per second or as having 1 attack every X seconds. However, this is just playing with numbers as they can all be converted into the same base unit if you wanted to. e.g. 2 attacks per second is 1 attack every 0.5 seconds. Regardless of how it is displayed you are still only working in a base unit of seconds. This isn't true for shockwave as it is based on distance and has a base unit of meters. Strictly speaking this means you can't meaningfully interact with it, but in code you can take liberties and just drop the units if desired. However, this means that interactions with it might behave in unexpected ways when apply time-based units (it is affected by attack speed).

Part B (Converting Units): When playing with numbers you often convert them to display in different ways that make sense to the user. For example, instead of saying 2 attacks per second (2/s), you might want to say that it's 1 attack every 0.5s. This is done by the simple conversion: 1 / (attacks-per-second). The important thing is that when converting some numbers like this (using 1 / X), this gives you an interval that approaches 0 but never gets there. This is what happens with shockwave.

Part C (Combining Differing Units): The tricky part here, which loops back to Part A & B, is "How do have a distance based interval (5 meters) get meaningfully affected by attack speed?". We have different units that we have to adjust for and they do not go together. You can't just say "I want my 5 meter distance to happen 0.15 seconds faster." Like... what? You can't do it.

Part D (Making it work anyway): So there are two ways to handle problem.
*One would be to find a figure that makes sense to be affected by attack speed, which we then reapply to distance. An intermediary value so to speak, that let's us keep trigger distance within a desired range.
*The second would be to simply pretend the units didn't exist and hope the numbers work out. That is, we base our trigger distance entirely off attack speed and slap "meters" on it.
Surprisingly, option 2 is what happens for shockwave. It doesn't use an intermediary value at all. If we look at the base attack speed (of Kugelblitz) 0.2/s and convert this as per Part B (1 / 0.2) we get 1 attack every 5 seconds. If we then ignore the units and slap meters on it instead we get 1 shockwave every 5 meters...

TADAAA! And the base trigger interval for shockwave is......... 5m.

To make sure this is the case, let's apply a simple shrine bonus of +20% attack speed. (Making sure multistrike is 0%, because this has a complex relationship with attack speed overall that I won't go into here)
We get a base attack speed of...

0.2 * 1.2 = 0.24/s

(can be verified in status screen).
Converting this per Part B we get...

1 / 0.24 = 4.16666

...and ignoring the units like before, we get 4.2m (rounded) trigger distance (can be verified in status screen).

Part E (The Conundrum in code):

Originally posted by Astute Questioner:

"So, if we apply 0.15 to our base attack speed and do the conversion thingy we get a massive number right?

Wrong.
While this is the expected behaviour, it isn't what actually happens.
For example, if we just use the base numbers for a reverb +0.15/s...

0.2 + (0.15 * 2) = 0.5/s

Converting...

1 / 0.5 = 2

So we would expect 2m trigger distance. However, upon using the reverb +0.15/s we immediately get 0.1m trigger distance, so what is happening?

To keep it somewhat simple, the code doesn't know how to handle the +0.15/s. Through the main weapon conversion with the sage it is now trying to pull in the main weapon modifiers that affect attack speed. Originally, this would have just been multiplicative modifiers that are easy to handle (just add them all up and multiply with the base value). However, now it is trying to pull in a +0.15 +0.15 and it doesn't know what to do.

While it is intuitive to us to simply add the 0.15 to the base attack speed, the computer needs to be explicitly told to do this, and so it is attempting to push a "addvalue" modifier into "multiplyvalue" modifier and it just derps out. This means that during its checks it returns a default value for a different method. Which happens to be 90. And 1 / 90 = 0.11111 which is what we are seeing.

This is also why, no matter what you do after reverb +0.15 the trigger distance is forever 0.1m. It no longer cares about attack speed.

[geo981010]

Thanks Tazz - very mathy but that does answer the main question on why it is acting so broken.

And thanks Wildegoose as you answered why it is only a Sage issue which was the second part of my question.

[🌺💗Tazzamorous💗🌺]

Originally posted by geo981010:

Thanks Tazz - very mathy but that does answer the main question on why it is acting so broken.

No problem. Sometimes I say more than needed. Hence the skip technical part. lol.

[CY13ERPUNK]

seems like this was changed with the new patch

[🌺💗Tazzamorous💗🌺]

Originally posted by CY13ERPUNK:

seems like this was changed with the new patch

Yes. It's still a strong combo. but the trigger distance bug was fixed.

[i bad at game]

felt so underwhelming i decided to check this post again. So it was patched . Now how to get Kugelblitz Specialist?

[Ulyaoth]

Originally posted by i bad at game:

felt so underwhelming i decided to check this post again. So it was patched . Now how to get Kugelblitz Specialist?

Sage

Proficient Stance - Elemental I-IV
Kugelblitz - Shockwaves > Electrify > Speed
both Upgrades

With Mark of Sorceress > Weapon Proficiency - Voltage I-III

You want high Attack Speed > Multistrike
Ethereal Shift +Projectile x2 can be a good idea.

I did it on Chamber of Dissonance.

[CY13ERPUNK]

Originally posted by i bad at game:

felt so underwhelming i decided to check this post again. So it was patched . Now how to get Kugelblitz Specialist?

ya what Ulyaoth said should work , you can also go with the archer's mark and focus on atkspd/multi/proc chance , i spent 4 potions on the character traits and then 4 on kugel upgrades , dbl'd the infamous archer +base atkspd and then the rank 10 kugel atkspd & big elec status proc

yesterday this was not working so u couldnt get it during the experimental patch , but it was fixed the following day and works now ; i did it in the first hall fwiw

basically now that the bug is fixed , its pretty ez to get this quest done , there are a lot of ways , not just sage main weapon cheez , like using all the electrify abilities together at once on any character