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Asking this game to be something else is kinda asking Street Fighter to be an RPG.
(although there have been cases of fighting games that had an RPG as well, like Samurai Shodown)
Indie games oftentimes blend genres, or twist them. There is no reason this game needs to adhere to every little detail of a previous game. Not to mention this "genre" isn't really an established one, people are still arguing what the genre's name even is, if it even exists. It's a handful of games copying the success of a recent one. I think this game has a lot more to offer than the other VS clones and could have taken some liberties. I don't see any reason for XP globes for instance. The game is less arcadey than VS and those feel out of place. Just let the XP bar fill up while you kill the mobs.
For example, Van Hellsing is an ARPG but there are certain parts where the game switches to a full Tower Defense game (remember when TDs were the biggest thing? Good times!).
Maybe an RPG where the battles were in this swarm survival mode? Maybe someone does that someday.
But my point is that in this very game here, its core mechanics are around the "enemies come towards you, you kill them". The difference being HOW it does that (in this case, its heavy Diablo influences).
When a game defines what it wants to be (a rail shooter, an arcade racing or an MMORPG), there's only so much you can do.
And blending genres... They are great when they work and horrible when they don't.
But maybe you, I and other people can come with some nice ideas that can be implemented in this game.
Afterall, that's also what EA is for.
Thanks.
I've also heard the term "Survivor-likes" being thrown around.
True. I still occasionally play the original Plants vs Zombies, and Gemcraft from time to time. Amazing games!
Funny you say that depending that sf 6 literally has an rpg mode with the world tour. Not the greatest mode.. but I would totally call it rpg.
Note: I am not saying the differences make HoT better. I am just listing the differences, and will list those that make a big differences to game play first.
Note 2: Just because two games that have the same interface (XP globes, for example) and have some similar gameplay elements means they are too derivatives or clone. Most JRPG have the same concept of HP and MP, save points, potions, usable items, but their experience can be different. The same can be said for FPS, SHUMP etc. Two games can have the same gameplay loop - like HoT and VS, but they can still provide two vastly different experiences.
Note 3: HoT is actually more similar to Crimson Land than VS in some regards.
Note 4: XP globes actually create an element of strategy where you need to collect them, and usually they are in harm's way. It add some elements of strategic thinking and impose the need for maneuvering. It's a little strange to say the game could have "done more" to depart from the tropes from this genre when it has done so much in this regards otherwise.
1. HoT: equippable items and ability to choose loadout before each run, VS: one equippable arcana. More equippable item slots than Arcana slots (VS only have 3 max normally, one more if playing inverted, and two more if you are Queen Sigma, AFAIK). Arcanas tend to be more powerful than items in HoT.
2. HoT: aim to attack (big change to gameplay) VS: little to no aiming
3. HoT: Every character has a unique primary attack, VS: drawn from common pool of weapons. Character identity is much stronger in HoT because of primary attacks but in VS characters are more defined in terms of stats and starting weapons.
4. HoT: May only choose one reward from boss monster's drop, in form of items or ability VS: treasure chest that gives 1 to 5 upgrades randomly
5. HoT: Each ability has two possible upgrade path, VS: Little to no option
6: HoT: Unique boss fight at the end of every level, VS: Only few levels have boss fights, most level just end with reapers
7: HoT: items must be retrieved before using, VS: no direct analog
8: HoT: Two kind of defense stats: Block ( %chance to avoid damage) and Defense ( damage reduction), VS: Only damage reduction
9. HoT: No evolutions (combing of two items/upgrades/weapons), VS: Have evolutions
10. HoT: Monsters have unique movement behaviours (some circle around you, some rush at you, some rush at you and slow down before reaching, some jumps), VS: mostly just rushes at you
11. HoT: No Luck stat, VS: Luck stat influences drop rate
12. HoT: Using potions doesn't consume a level, VS: using potions consume a level
13. HoT: Have memory potions and double potions, VS: doesn't have those concepts
14. HoT: Unlocking potions require finding herbs first on the map, VS: unlocking Banish, Rerolls etc are through achievements
15. HoT: While the basic version of abilities have analogs to Vampire Survivors, their upgrade versions are different:
- Astronomer Orb vs. Bible: The former gets Inner Orbit or Electrified Orbs, while the latter basically just expand the orbit radius and spin faster.
- Phantom Needle vs. Magic Wand: The former either get an upgrade that strike further or can be split, while the latter just shoots faster with less cooldown
- Meteor Strike vs. Santa Water: Former doesn't leave damaging zones until upgraded, while one upgrade allow it to spawn smaller meteor strikes. In VS, zones get larger and last longer, with the evolution generate zones around the player.
- Lighting vs. Lightning Ring: Lighting in the beta drops several times at one before going into cooldown, while in VS they strike one at a time with short cooldown. Upgraded Lightning in HoT can do fire damage or have higher chance of electrify
- Radiant Aura vs Garlic: HoT's version of Garlic divides damage across all enemies in the radius unlike VS which does the same damage to all foes. Also, HoT"s version doesn't block projectiles.
16. HoT: Concept of elements - for now there's fire, lighting, magic, physical and soon frost (now in beta). Some items unlock interesting interaction between elements: Ruby Crown, Echoing Band etc.
17: HoT: has concept of damage over time, while VS doesn't really have.
18: HoT: No equivalent of Golden eggs, which are the current end-game meta for VS. Characters cannot get infinitely better unlike in VS.
19. HoT: Dynamic difficulty is done via Agony (beta) while VS: you decide the level of Curse by buying the upgrade from the screen
20. HoT: Quests (aka achievements) like in VS grant new stuff, but also give increased XP gain, while in VS XP gain is purchasable
21: HoT: Missions must be undertaken in a sequence of sorts, depending on their position in the quest board while in VS you can tackle achievements in any order you want
22: HoT: more various bosses during a level - Horseman, Giant Slime, Imp Chieftian eac while in VS most bosses are just together versions of normal mob
23: HoT: Dodging projectiles is a thing you do all the time, while in VS you rarely have to dodge projectiles save for a moments in a few stages and in some of the boss fights (vs. the Giga-Reaper or the Director). Garlic in VS trivialize most projectiles (such as those in the Bone Zone) except for those in certain boss fights but there's no mechanics that trivialize mechanics in HoT
24: HoT: No method of farming gold unlike in VS where there's actually a built-in mechanic to encourage that (Gold Fever, and the Trouser character).
25: HoT: display the locations of two scrolls and an attractor right at the start, giving players incentive to head towards them while VS only does that for relics (items that add new meta abilities, like map, see hidden objects etc.) This creates a slightly different gameplay loop where in HoT you actually have a goal you can head to at the start of all stages
There;s probably other minor differences, but I think this is a long enough list.
I haven't played SF6, but that reminded me of modes like Master League from Pro Evolution Soccer where you could make your own player and improving his stats, managing his career etc.
Then many other sports games followed that trend up to today.
Now I've also remembered that Tekken 3 (iirc) had a beat'em up mode, and some other fighting game had a volleyball mode (Dead or Alive?).
Although those are separate modes from the main game, not really INTO the game.
Anyway, like I said previously, I think this game already has its core mechanics defined and would take a lot of work to mix up some other style.
However, personally, I would love to see this "swarm survival" properly mixed with some other genres as well.
No one said Halls of Torment is VS 2.0, on the contrary. I think it's original and interesting enough that it could stand on its own feet. From my perspective all it needed to copy over was the reverse bullet hell idea with the enemies swarming you, and the choose a perk mechanic. It didn't need to copy over the arcadey XP globes, the chests or the meta progression.
I'm not disagreeing with you or anything, just pointing out that:
1) XP orbs is to keep the players moving.
It's kinda the standard for this genre.
Of course, someone could try other mechanics but I don't see that as an issue...
The guys from Soul Hunters took matters to a more extreme level and made the xp orbs DISAPPEAR after some time.
(which was thankfully removed on the release version)
2) What's the issue with chests and progression?
That's the RPG bit, isn't it? 😅
Or you would like something more like Brotato which is more towards Rogue Like (where you unlock new stuff but nothing stats related)?
Your post was very good and detailed. But if you allow me, I'd like to make a small correction regarding the LUCK attribute:
It not only raises drop rate, but also drop quality, quality of the chests (triple or penta chests), crit rate and a bunch of other small stuff that I don't remember.
It's a very important but overlooked stats.
No I hate Brotato.
What I meant is you can design mobs to force the player to keep moving, you don't need the XP orbs, they feel very arcadey and in contrast with the more immersive vibe of the game. You're in hell to fight demons, not to collect little abstract XP orbs from Heroes of the Storm.
Chests are fine, but they seem copy-pasted from VS. Why not make stuff drop from mobs since you're giving us a twist of earlier ARPGS. That would make much more sense. Same for meta progression, the screen looks exactly the same as in VS, down to having the ranks.
I still think the simplicity of VS makes it a better "survivors-like" overall (this is where the genre naming falls apart lol), making it easier to get into a mindless flow state. It has just the right difficulty curve for that. I also love how the character shoots the way it's facing, which feels much more elegantly designed. But HoT could be an amazing twist on the ARPG genre if it only took what it needed from VS. Its strongest point atm is its art style. Did I mention how cool those skeletons look?