Archer level V traits

[rsmetten]

Hey guys,

my question today is whether archers level V traits are intended that way?

explanation:
As we know the really interesting level V traits (of any character) are the level V proficiencies (of course exect our nicely sage, witch doesn´t have traits but only jokes).
Further is the decision for all FOUR level V traits of a char (with the memory and reverb potions) is part of the major tactics of our runs.

So we have many interesting possibilities to choose especially the proficiencies:

There are chars like warlock or flamer with both proficiencies IMPROVING the char.
Others are equalizing themselves by choosing both proficiencies (e.g. sorceress or cleric).
And even swordsman reducing his own base attack speed (-0,2) can choose this proficiency two times and is still IMPROVING his char.

But not the ARCHER: both proficiencies (reducing her base attack speed by 0,33) are DOWNGRADING her. Proof: By taking both proficiencies double you reduce archers base attack speed below zero and KILL her main weapon completely.
So why not reduce her attack speed multiplyer instead of her massive base reduction?

thx

ps.: There surely was a time when archer was the very best char of the halls. But these times definitely are over, especially when playing with lots of artifacts or vault debuffs. So why not grant her some slightly improvements in honor and memory of the old times... :)

[shadowmpire]

i dont even look at those i always take +30% crit chance (all) with the -90% damage bonus (main weapon)

[rsmetten]

As for archer I agree. But it´s so sad that you have some really game changing level V traits (like ghost army or mace area, especially when doubled) and some just boring by-the-way-picks like you describe (and I also choose).
Playing Swordsman or the mentioned above you are really looking forward to your level V traits. But playing others (e.g. with burn, spark or frost) the level V traits are no fun but a hard calculation how to choose simply the smallest debuff.
...
If not mentioned yet: even the worst level V char is still better then the ridiculous sage... :)

[rsmetten]

To focus again:

Question: Are the archer proficiencies (level V) DOWNGRADING the dps count?
The fourth (with reverb and memory) definitly does...

[Spiffy]

I think it depends on what you're building towards, some upgrade traits come with trade-offs, it's just the way the cookie crumbles.

[rsmetten]

I agree with geometrical traits/ abilities/ improvements like area, force, piercing and so on. but a direct proportional debuff like negative BASE speed count hardly is able beeing equalized through geometrical buffs.

[Destructomonkey]

I feel like the -90% archer capstone trait with +crit was something meant to combine with the Spellcaster Gloves to make it useful. Just stop attacking with your main weapon altogether.

[shadowmpire]

Originally posted by Destructomonkey:

I feel like the -90% archer capstone trait with +crit was something meant to combine with the Spellcaster Gloves to make it useful. Just stop attacking with your main weapon altogether.

or have really high damage bonus already that the 90% is a drop in the bucket.

[rsmetten]

That´s all correct - as for spellcassters gloves - built and also for a built with high crit bonus.
But the point is: in your examples you can increase your dps count (by choosing the right built). My point/ question is: The weapon proficiencies level V (arrows spread and increased piercing) are DOWNGRADING your dps and it doesn´t matter what built you have chosen.
By the way: For stopping my main attack I won´t wast any traits - especially no level V traits - I simply stop pressing the mouse button... :)
thx

[>< V ><]

Attack speed, multistrike, damage, crit damage, area of effect...all these things are multiplied together when determining your average DPS.

When multiplying numbers with a finite limit, you maximize this output by keeping the numbers as close as possible. For instance,

1*9 = 9
2*8 = 16
3*7 = 21
4*6 = 24
5*5 = 25
6*4 = 24
7*3 = 21
8*2 = 16
9*1 = 9

The numbers are finite (add to 10) and their product is maximized when they are the same. In general, you want attack speed, multistrike, damage, crit damage and area of effect to all have the same multiplier to maximize damage.

This is assuming things are equal meaning, +30% attack speed - 30% damage. If things are equal, then always choose the output that gets your multipliers closer together. Things are more complicated when things are not equal like, +30% attack speed - 90% damage. Then you do need to do some more math to see which is worth it.

[Dad]

:

[rsmetten]

Thx for your answers!

But I didn´t get it yet.

1. I don´t want to maximize the area of a geometrical square. And as said above: for our purposes you have to do a little bit more maths.

2. The clue of the whole game is to increase BOTH factors of your calculation: base value and multiplier.

3. Doubling multistrike wont double your dps, doubling attack speed might double your dps, doubling your area size (eg shield maidens hammer) might even increase your dps to more than double. So I can´t get the point that my dps is the result of the multiplication all these mathematical factors.

4. I appologize for the title of this tread. I should have written: Archer level V PROFICIENCY. I really like the comments to stance level V (+30% and -90%) but my point is the proficiency level V. And with the -0,33 base attack speed debuff you have a really direct proportional multiplier of your dps. And If I reduce my base attack speed to 0 (see above), than our whole nice mathematical product will go down to 0. If I would be able to reduce the base multistrike value to 0, my dps still would be huge.

By the way: I totally agree that there are some traits you have to calculate in a really heavy way. But the question is: Is torment really the right game for nobel price in mathemathics?

Thx again!

[>< V ><]

Welp...

Here is the equation I have in my spreadsheet that reproduces the games numbers.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3377928534

Base values are the actual ingame base values and the percent values are the actual ingame percent values.

1/2*theta*r^2

is the area of a slice of pie. It's the area your weapon makes. Since radius is squared for the "area of a sector" means that increasing range is top dog for increasing damage, because its quadratic and not linear like everything else.

If your base multistrike is zero, then Ms = 0 and your DPS would be zero. All characters have a base multistrike of 1, which simply means 1 attack.

When I want to know that I'm maximizing damage output, then I will continually update my spreadsheet as I play. If I have to choose between +30% attack speed versus +90% damage, then I just punch both these numbers in and see which outputs the larger DPS and then I choose that one.

Obviously, this can be quite tedious. It's worth it for a couple runs to get the idea of how to maximize damage, but I really don't use it too much anymore. It ruins the fun of the game having to constantly stop and input numbers into a spreadsheet.

[rsmetten]

Thx and wow for all of that!

As I mentioned: increasing area is not linear. I don´t think, that range is equal to radius: Increasing the area of shield maidens war hammer increases impact as you described (maybe quadratic), but increasing range of war hammer is just increasing the distance of the epicenter.

Sry if I was wrong with base multi. Maybe cause I never managed to reach base multi =0. :)

Once again: Thx for all comments to S T A N C E (+30 crit, -90 dmg). But this tread is about P R O F I C I E N C Y (-0,33 base attack speed).

And also once agian: I totally agree that to much maths is killing the game.