Not sure why people are bashing on the swordman

[Teleadan]

I'm pretty ♥♥♥♥ at the game and don't have everything unlocked, but the swordsman has most consistently been the most busted of all the characters. I saw someone mention that the cleric is just a better swordsman, but that's just not true.

Stacking Critical Hit chance and damage easily had me hitting for crits over 1k most of the time. Range and cone meant I was wiping out a quarter of the screen, whichever direction I face.

Then paired with the flamethrower upgrade and the light aura as my only two abilities, it felt so broken. Needs the attack speed crown to really make the best out of it.

The swordsman doesn't split its damage when it targets lots of enemies like the cleric does. His survivability is also insane, with the 0.2 health regen and strong health upgrades (70).

Swordsman is the only character I've managed to get past 30 mins on any map. I've done it on all 3 maps with swordsman. I've also beaten one of the past 30 minute bosses using him.

Without more achievements, I can't see any other class coming close to this one, at least for me.

[Ulyaoth]

Origineel geplaatst door Teleadan:

I think the cleric counts as magic damage whereas the archer and swordman have physical attacks.

Yes.

Origineel geplaatst door Teleadan:

I played for 5 mins with the sorc but had to leave, but it felt like it could be better than ranger if the lightning forks? That would be a good upgrade, but I don't know if that's how the class works.

She takes her time to become busted, great for crit and electrify builds.
With her Chain Lightning she can clear out many mobs later and has very high crit dmg.

Origineel geplaatst door Teleadan:

With the archer, I don't know if cone is a good upgrade. He fires 2 arrows to start, so does the cone just widen the spread or does it increase the hitbox of the spread. If it just widens the spread its bad, but if it widens the hitbox it would be great. That's the main issue with the archer, unless you've got the orbs or radiant aura, it struggles when it gets surrounded. 20+ minutes becomes really hard because of this.

Her cone gets wider and the her arrows get thicker, so hitbox increase.
getting surrounded is bad for every char, if you dont have the power to clear your circle.
Try using Transfixion or Ring Blades with her, much pewpew.

Origineel geplaatst door Teleadan:

One of the really confusing upgrades on cleric usually happens when you get something like:

+166 base damage
+0.4 attack

I always pick the base damage as it means the cleric reduction in damage to lots of enemies minimises greatly, but I don't really understand what 0.4 attack does.

Everything related to x.x attacks means, that you get one additional attack after a number of hits. You can use Hunting Gloves and Multihit to push this value by 50%, so instead of 0.4 it becomes 0.6.
Cleric has a base of 2.00, +0.4 means he will do 3 attacks after the 2nd attack cycle.
2.2.3.2.3.2.2.3
With the 50% increase 2.4 + 50% (1.2) = 3.6
So the new cycle would be:
3.4.3.4.3.4

The Archers starts with 2.00 base, with Gloves and Multihit (50%) she already gets 3 projectiles.

[Halfshell]

Origineel geplaatst door Teleadan:

Origineel geplaatst door Halfshell:

Sorc kinda feels like a worse Ranger so far I'm sure she needs something specific to be good.

Also whats with the class tier 4s that have 1 be something like "physical damage +30%" or "mainweapon damage +30%" isn't the sword attack physical or am I missing something?

I played for 5 mins with the sorc but had to leave, but it felt like it could be better than ranger if the lightning forks? That would be a good upgrade, but I don't know if that's how the class works.

I don't think she gets forks, she gets longer chains from pierce. I think she gets more dps out of her tree than Ranger but not much.

Origineel geplaatst door Teleadan:

With the archer, I don't know if cone is a good upgrade. He fires 2 arrows to start, so does the cone just widen the spread or does it increase the hitbox of the spread. If it just widens the spread its bad, but if it widens the hitbox it would be great. That's the main issue with the archer, unless you've got the orbs or radiant aura, it struggles when it gets surrounded. 20+ minutes becomes really hard because of this.

It makes the arrows thicker but eh, I'd skip. With Ranger I go hard into line attacks with Transfixion. Its really good in map 3 because enemies all line up on their own. On other maps you can't hit as many targets in a line as reliably but its great on map 3.

Then grab Dragon's Breath with the pushback upgrade which makes you never get surrounded and helps you form them up into lines. Phantom Needles also perform better when enemies are grouped into a line, at least more likely to target well.

Origineel geplaatst door Ulyaoth:

Origineel geplaatst door Halfshell:

Also whats with the class tier 4s that have 1 be something like "physical damage +30%" or "mainweapon damage +30%" isn't the sword attack physical or am I missing something?

Since char sheets are buggy sometimes:
If you pick the +30% physical, some abilitys get a boost with the Tag Physical.
This applys to Ring Blades, Phantom Needles, Astronomer's Orbs and Clay Golem.
I think the main weapon get excluded, but dont know for sure.
It wouldnt make sense to choose between 30% dmg main weapon and 30% abilitys + main wepaon.
At the point where I pick one of those, I dont pay attention anymore to damage numbers.

Yeah that'd make sense but it would be nice if it was less confusing. I guess main weapons are technically untagged? Or maybe its just tagged "main weapon". But still.

[Lu2]

Origineel geplaatst door Teleadan:

I searched for tier list just now and the thread that comes up from Mic01851165, both the OP and the replies rate cleric highly and swordsman as the worst or almost the worst.

Judging by how far I've gotten

S Tier: Swordsman
A Tier: Exterminator
B Tier: Archer
C Tier: Warlock, Cleric
Undecided due to low playtime: Shieldmaiden, Sorcerer

Warlock and cleric both require specific builds and upgrades to make good. I've had some broken runs compared with the other runs, but they are really determined by upgrades. All swordsman, exterminator and archer can do well without relying heavily on upgrades or items, even the base items do well for them.

shield maiden is invicible more or less with blood skirt and regen you can just walk trough skeletons and ♥♥♥♥ . her weakness is low dps on main weapon(damage is good against single target) use aoe spells like meteor , lighning strike , close range light circle

sorcerer is kinda tricky at begining of stage . but very powerfull later . i ques summoner build with golem pretty good

[Lu2]

yeah blue potion makes main weapons realy strong

[Ulyaoth]

Origineel geplaatst door Halfshell:

Yeah that'd make sense but it would be nice if it was less confusing. I guess main weapons are technically untagged? Or maybe its just tagged "main weapon". But still.

The tag system, especially with main wepaons is totally unclear, since we cant look at them somewhere, only assume.
In abilities its cleare described, varying between 2 and 3 tags.
i assume main wepaons work diffrent
Example:
Tag "Main Weapon" Tag "Damage Type" (Physical, Magical, Elemental Lightning/Fire, Summon) Tag "Melee/Range" Tag "Projectile/Area" Tag"Debuff Fragile/Affliction/Burn/Electrify"

The 30%+ Physical is probably for abilitys, so "Main Weapon" excluded.

Origineel geplaatst door Halfshell:

I think thats addition base number of attacks, which is good because it multiplies.

Both are great to pick with Potion of Memory.

[coolsangmin]

Swordsman is a very forgiving and powerful character. He is the only character who can benefit from any upgrade. If a fourth act is released, The first character I will use is Swordsman.

Cleric can be almost top-tier character with burning damage. Ring of Fire and Ruby Circlet are essential items. And if you upgrade it focusing on range and width, you can deal tremendous burning damage. It is so strong that enemies in Act 1 and 2 can hardly damage you.

[Teleadan]

Origineel geplaatst door coolsangmin:

Swordsman is a very forgiving and powerful character. He is the only character who can benefit from any upgrade. If a fourth act is released, The first character I will use is Swordsman.

Cleric can be almost top-tier character with burning damage. Ring of Fire and Ruby Circlet are essential items. And if you upgrade it focusing on range and width, you can deal tremendous burning damage. It is so strong that enemies in Act 1 and 2 can hardly damage you.

This was what I was trying to convey. Every upgrade except armour, block and health seem to be good for a swordsman and even then they are just sub optimal, health I take when I see armour or block or if I already have enough dmg. Cleric and warlock seem much more reliant on certain upgrades and many aren't optimal or outright useless. The fact that cleric can't crit sometimes means you're only getting 1 other option to choose.

I felt like the ruby circlet good, but only if you haven't unlocked the attack speed circlet. When things get going, you'll be 1 hitting most things, so damage isn't really an issue. What will get you killed is not having enough attack speed to kill everything in 1 hit. I feel like this makes the attack speed helmet SS tier and everything else is A tier.

[Teleadan]

Origineel geplaatst door Lu2:

Origineel geplaatst door Teleadan:

I searched for tier list just now and the thread that comes up from Mic01851165, both the OP and the replies rate cleric highly and swordsman as the worst or almost the worst.

Judging by how far I've gotten

S Tier: Swordsman
A Tier: Exterminator
B Tier: Archer
C Tier: Warlock, Cleric
Undecided due to low playtime: Shieldmaiden, Sorcerer

Warlock and cleric both require specific builds and upgrades to make good. I've had some broken runs compared with the other runs, but they are really determined by upgrades. All swordsman, exterminator and archer can do well without relying heavily on upgrades or items, even the base items do well for them.

shield maiden is invicible more or less with blood skirt and regen you can just walk trough skeletons and ♥♥♥♥ . her weakness is low dps on main weapon(damage is good against single target) use aoe spells like meteor , lighning strike , close range light circle

sorcerer is kinda tricky at begining of stage . but very powerfull later . i ques summoner build with golem pretty good

I haven't gotten the bloodskirt or the boots which make you regen when you aren't moving, but I can imagine those would make most builds unkillable, especially the ones with 0.2 health regen upgrades.

[Lu2]

Origineel geplaatst door Teleadan:

Origineel geplaatst door Lu2:

shield maiden is invicible more or less with blood skirt and regen you can just walk trough skeletons and ♥♥♥♥ . her weakness is low dps on main weapon(damage is good against single target) use aoe spells like meteor , lighning strike , close range light circle

sorcerer is kinda tricky at begining of stage . but very powerfull later . i ques summoner build with golem pretty good

I haven't gotten the bloodskirt or the boots which make you regen when you aren't moving, but I can imagine those would make most builds unkillable, especially the ones with 0.2 health regen upgrades.

not the mention shield maiden have high defense and and parry already .

[coolsangmin]

Origineel geplaatst door Teleadan:

Cleric and warlock seem much more reliant on certain upgrades and many aren't optimal or outright useless. The fact that cleric can't crit sometimes means you're only getting 1 other option to choose.

I felt like the ruby circlet good, but only if you haven't unlocked the attack speed circlet. When things get going, you'll be 1 hitting most things, so damage isn't really an issue. What will get you killed is not having enough attack speed to kill everything in 1 hit. I feel like this makes the attack speed helmet SS tier and everything else is A tier.

So true.

Wind Crown is good, but I think Ruby Circlet also has its own purpose. You can finish your character faster by focusing on attack speed and range, even if you upgrade damage and crit later. And stacked burning damage is very powerful, and often deals more damage than other abilities that have been properly upgraded. Try a burning damage cleric later. It's really powerful and fun.

I actually don't know how to use the Wind Crown well because I got it only after completing all the challenges. I just know a few builds that I saw in youtube videos. If you've got any Wind Crown builds to share, just let me know. ;)

[Teleadan]

Origineel geplaatst door coolsangmin:

Origineel geplaatst door Teleadan:

Cleric and warlock seem much more reliant on certain upgrades and many aren't optimal or outright useless. The fact that cleric can't crit sometimes means you're only getting 1 other option to choose.

I felt like the ruby circlet good, but only if you haven't unlocked the attack speed circlet. When things get going, you'll be 1 hitting most things, so damage isn't really an issue. What will get you killed is not having enough attack speed to kill everything in 1 hit. I feel like this makes the attack speed helmet SS tier and everything else is A tier.

So true.

Wind Crown is good, but I think Ruby Circlet also has its own purpose. You can finish your character faster by focusing on attack speed and range, even if you upgrade damage and crit later. And stacked burning damage is very powerful, and often deals more damage than other abilities that have been properly upgraded. Try a burning damage cleric once. It's really powerful and fun.

I actually don't know how to use the Wind Crown well because I got it only after completing all the challenges. I just know a few builds that I saw in youtube videos. If you've got any Wind Crown builds to share, just let me know. ;)

So ruby crown is up to 60% damage for each burning enemy, not hard to achieve with the exterminator, or if you have enough upgrades on dragons breath.

Wind crown is 50% for every dead enemy for 5 seconds.

This is why wind crown is just better in every way. It's a flat 50% increase, which means you're attacking more enemies, more often. If you already 1 hit every enemy, a 60% or 6000% increase in damage won't help you if you can't clear your circle faster than they appear. Sure a 6000% increase will help on bosses, but you'll just get whittled away via attrition if you can't clear.

Plus, if you have on hit effects like electrify, burn on hit, forking lightning, or other effects, the 50% attack speed means you'll be applying them more often which will lead to even greater clear speed. Many builds like cleric for example or archer need enough attack speed to be landing their attacks.

So wind crown always over everything else. There may be a helmet I've not unlocked that could be better for a certain build, but the wind crown will benefit any build massively. It will be S tier easy.

[Ulyaoth]

Wind Crown is great for everyone that can kill many enemys in a short periods of time and has great screen clear ability.
But Windcrown is useless during Boss Fights.
Thunder Crown is great, if you have some sort of magic dmg (Transfixion9 and something to apply Electrify.
War Horns is great for bosses, if you can upkeep the 3 Stacks permant for 30% dmg bonus.

[Halfshell]

Origineel geplaatst door coolsangmin:

If you've got any Wind Crown builds to share, just let me know. ;)

Wind Crown is good on any build that can kill 10 enemies every 5 seconds. Also %attack speed is basically better than more %damage because there more sources of %damage. Like even the blessing is 50% damage but only 30% attack speed. Attack speed also applies statuses better because I don't think burn or electrify scale on %damage.

Wind Crown is basically good all the time only strike is its weaker at the start of the run which potentially can lower your kill speed/ snowball effect. Not really a factor RN but might be in later maps once they get harder or if tougher/ fewer mobs become a thing as you do need those 10 kills while the fire circlet can use burning more than once per enemy.

[Teleadan]

Origineel geplaatst door Ulyaoth:

Wind Crown is great for everyone that can kill many enemys in a short periods of time and has great screen clear ability.
But Windcrown is useless during Boss Fights.
Thunder Crown is great, if you have some sort of magic dmg (Transfixion9 and something to apply Electrify.
War Horns is great for bosses, if you can upkeep the 3 Stacks permant for 30% dmg bonus.

I feel like its only useless during the very end boss fight. Bosses are always during your wave. If the game played like a roguelike where you kill enemies and then enter the boss room then it'd be useless, but there's always enemies about while the boss is up.

I would probably switch to a different helmet if I had one on the final boss, but during the 30 mins, the wind crown still will give you 50%, why is it useless?

[Ulyaoth]

Origineel geplaatst door Ulyaoth:

Wind
But Windcrown is useless during Boss Fights.

Origineel geplaatst door Teleadan:

I would probably switch to a different helmet if I had one on the final boss, but during the 30 mins, the wind crown still will give you 50%, why is it useless?

I was refering to the Lords.
The bosses and elites feel more like trash mobs with slightly more hp, except for the wyrm on map 2.