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You don't get it. It's funny in a way. They play in E/A415. that's why it's E. Eb standard tuning is another tuning. In Eb standard it's Eb. I really don't know why you cannot understand this simple thing. Is your brain damaged in a way? Should I be sorry, because you're sick and do all the best you can, but fail because of limited resources? I don't know. If so: sorry.
As I already told you multiple time I know the concept of reference notes. You don't. Here's my answer anyways. It depends. If we talk about E/A432 it's A, if we talk Eb/A432 it's Ab and in case you want D/A432 it's a G. You don't understand the simple things I am trying to tell you. That's why you ask incomplete question like that one and assume a dumb answer from my side. Do you understand my answer or are unable to follow again?
*lol* I have showed so many errors on your side, you really should be ashamed. But yet you continue to pretend you are a smart guy. Does your damage hurt or have you accomodated?
You play the same thing as if you are in E-standard. Yes. That's ok. No problem with that. It does not matter though. The note is still a Eb in Eb-standard tuning. Which is different from E/A415.
So the guys naming their notes correct are unexperienced kids and the guys that name notes wrong because of "convinience" are the smart ones? Yeah, in your world perhaps.
Let me simplify things down with another example:
> I'm a guitarist who has always been using E standard, but now I want to make my strings bend easier and hurt my finger less, maybe because I'm getting old, or maybe because I simply want to have a smoother feel in my strings.
> I can either use less gauge strings or I downtune my guitar. Let's go downtuning, since less gauge strings can happen to break more easily.
> How much do I downtune? Let's start by a half step for now, I put on my tuner, the tuner I always used for my E standard tuning, the world most standard tuner, designed for the frequency 440 for A, and then I tune all my strings half step lower than I usually did, so it's Eb tuning now.
> Now, do I have to learn new notes for the fretboard to play the same stuff I used to play? No need! I'll just think about it as in E standard, which would actually be correct if I was thinking about tuning to freq A415, and everything will still play the same, same note names, just sounding half step lower. No need to learn new note names for everything that I've been playing through the past years.
> So, if somebody asks me about my tuning, what do I say? I can either tell them I use Eb tuning, which would be technically correct since in this modern world almost everything is made around A440, or I tell them I tune in A415, which could probably sound weird to some people, as not everybody is used to think in frequencies. Probably better to tell people that I use Eb tuning, even if when I play I think of it as E, since in the modern world almost everything works under A440, and this way even 5 years old kids will know how to tune like I do.
^
The magic of Eb tuning, and many other shifted standard tunings, and it's very hard to understand science behind it and the musicians who use it, explained again, this time for people of all ages
Don't want to see it? Fine, you are in your right to tune in Eb and call your 5th fret a G#. Leave the correctness for those who actually know what's going on and why they're tuning to Eb.
I don't have anything more to say in this thread, if you want any more backing of my statements or whatever, just go to #78 and #38.
I'm back to playing music...
... in Eb standard
I play D-standard since >20 years. Were you already born back then?
Yes and some other guy asks you to give A, you happily fret Nr 5 on E-String and fail badly. Not in your limited world of course where everyone plays in E/A415.
I would ask "A415 ... what? Eb, D, E?". Half of the information is missing, because you mix reference pitch and base note into some unusable and uninformative mess. But as long as your reference pitch matches one of my notes, I would not care about your tuning at all. As long as you play A when A fits and don't start to play Ab instead.
You are really only missing a simple thing: you are not tuning Eb-standard. You are tuning E/A415 and those 2 are different tunings.
I bet you are playing in E/A415
That just doesn't happen man, you would have to be idiotic for that to happen. When playing with other musicians you usually know the tuning context of the band or jam, and I've said a hundred times already, I have a second guitar in E standard for jams. Nofukinbody goes with an Eb to a jam, unless explicitly specified.
You are the one making an uninformative mess of something that is actually very simple when trying to illuminate me with your tuning knowledge. Everybody knows how to tune a guitar in the most standard tuning of the world, E standard. When you just say an A freq, it's common sense that we are also thinking of said tuning. And then, I insist, who two guitarists jam together with an E an Eb guitar respectively?
You are really only missing a simple thing: you use an A440 based tuner to get to this tuning. Like every tuner comes 440 by default. In a tuner that cannot change it's frequency, you have to tune to Eb, that's why you call it Eb tuning, because it is your reference just for the tuning part, not for the playing part. Ask the guys in #78. You can see in instructional of these guys how they start by sharing their tuning, "My guitar is tuned to E flat", or something of that kind, but then they talk about everything like if it was E standard.
You know, I might actually get the game, I'm not hating it that much just because it's missing this feature, but I think they should have thought of every possibilty and every kind of musician. Because you know, there are many people who do what I do. I'm not the weirdoo here. Nobody is. You could see in #78 there are many other sucessful guitar players who also do this, and there are many more, but at the moment I can't think of any other example of pieces named after the key. It is just a different way to approach the same thing, for personal convenience. If you think I'm using standard based tunings the wrong way, you must think these famous guitarists are all wrong too.
If you read #1 again, I opened this thread just to ask about the existence of this feature, and I told why I found it to be wrong not to have it. My question quickly got answered, but many people also wanted to let me know how dumb I was for wanting a feature that would tell the wrong note names, so I had to reply and explain the things. I didn't plan to start a war here, and I'm already tired of saying the same things over and over again in different ways. But hey, it's Internet, you have to win arguments even if you are not sure at all about what you are talking about (I'm not saying that you don't have any idea, just that you look a little close minded and looks like you probably never used Eb tuning in the same way I and these guitarists did). So i'm not gonna stop you, I have better things to do now, already lost much time here.
"I think this is very wrong..."
"...very confusing to be reading wrong chord names when playing..."
"The proof of RS using wrong names for notes..."
"...think about their instruments as in A440 are just kids garage bands that don't have enough experience and musical knowledge..."
... and so on and so on. In nearly every comment you made you told us how superior you are and how dumb we others are, because we don't agree with your POV. You said makers of RS are clueless, that you are a musician, while we are casual gamers only fretting where the game tells us, that we don't know anything about Eb tuning, that we have no clue about reference pitches, hid behind some famous guys trying to make an argument somehow at least.
And now I read this:
"It is just a different way to approach the same thing, for personal convenience."
Just wow. Get the game. It's really great. But remember: you did not have a great start here in the forums with all your accusations and arrogance. Try to work on your attitude. It sucks. Hard.
"I think this is very wrong..." < - this is true, I don't know the full list of songs of this game, but at least some of the Eb songs were originally written by musicians who think in E standard. Now, you're gonna say, where is my proof that they originally think in E standard? I don't have a proof for the songs in this game, because usually when you record music you don't go and explain to the media your tuning preferences, and less about how do you look at your fretboard. But as you could see in #78, there are at least some guitarists who name their pieces after the key, and that key would be wrong if we considered A as 440 for those pieces. That's a good enough proof to know that there may be many more people who do this. Also, the bands who tune E in studio but Eb when live, I don't think they like learning new chord names just for the live versions.
"...very confusing to be reading wrong chord names when playing..." < - this is true aswell. well, maybe not "very confusing", but at least is a bit unpleasant to have to read note names you are not used to relate to those positions.
"The proof of RS using wrong names for notes..." < - same than above, or even better, can you give me proof that they are right? Oh, I forgot, they are thinking about Eb as it is in A440, which is the correct way, of course...
"...think about their instruments as in A440 are just kids garage bands that don't have enough experience and musical knowledge..." < - this was half an exagerated thing, but it's half true too. Many young kids who want to learn songs from their heroes, let's say GnR as you mentioned, start using their same tuning, but in many cases I bet they don't know exactly why they do it. I've even seen cases of novice people who are to lazy even to transpose or change the tuning, and learn sweet child in E standard tuning, but in the same pitch as the original song. That is, bye bye 12th fret harmonics!
I was just trying to let you understand why these musicians and I do it. We love E standard tuning, but we find strings to be more tensed than we would like. So we use Eb instead, but still think in E. That's why I say it's for our personal convenience. I'm not mad to people who tune in Eb and actually think in Eb. I'm mad to people who can't understand that a lot of musicians use Eb tuning but think in E, and it looks like many people here in this thread just simply ignore this fact. Now you know that this way of tuning and thinking about tunings do exist, and is not that weird, at least you now accept it. And yes, I'm mad to this game for skipping an option for this way of thinking.
Nice! Pat on the back for you for unnecesarily overcomplicating things! I bet you are such a succesful musician with such a high musical knolewdge and I bet you are very good improsiving in many different keys modes and voicings and you have 0 trouble. And your steam avatar sucesfully tells me you like guitars!! Whoah!
Nice, you just confirmed me you quickly searched it all on Google. Because you know, baroque tuning, sir, is actually A 415.3, as it is G# in A 440. You just say 415 and skip the ".3" for the same reason you don't write all the decimals of pi number, because they don't really matter. With your superior musical knowledge, you should be aware that the difference between 415 and 415.3 hz is so, so small, that it wouldn't even matter, as no string in the most perfect guitar in any gig would stay in tune so well to resist a change of 0.3 hz after a song full of hard playing. The slightlest pressure of your fingers, the vibratos, the movement on the stage, make it impossible to stay always perfectly in the exact spot you want the tuning to be. You could have your guitar tuned in any range between 412-417 hz, or even higher difference, and it would still sound great in a 415hz context.
This is absurd, Flechita. How many you want? I can give you a half-dozen examples right now: Green Day (obviously; use a LOT of Eb tuning, with a recent trend toward E Standard; their piano is a baby grand with concert-pitch tuning in E Standard), Nightwish (keyboards, but Tuomas is still tuned to E Standard for 98% of their songs, even though the band trends toward D Standard and lower), Shinedown, Eluveitie, Smashing Pumpkins, Stone Sour, even Nickelback. There, seven for the price of six, and all refute your assertion of pianists and keyboardists not using E standard tuning regardless of what tuning the band or song is keyed to at any point. Yes, most modern keyboard/synthesisers have an option for it. Only a few professionals bother with it, and they trend toward the EDM/dubstep/house genres, which are kyeboard/synth heavy.
Before you ask, yeah, I have a bunch of experience, and some of it professional level; what you are saying is a cack-handed conflation of about six separate areas of music theory, about which you yourself can't seem to untwine one from the other in making a point. You may be trying to say something valid here, but nobody here who has a lick of actual training or experience under their belt can discern it beneath the pile of effluvient twaddle.
You are in fact wrong. Whether you spend your money or not on this is of no consequence to anyone here but you. We're a generally helpful and easygoing lot here, but at this point I doubt anyone would be dismayed by seeing the back of you. You take a basic question and turn the generally helpful responses you initially received (yeah, I read this thread; now I think I need hospital-strength Clorox as an antidote) into a dispute about nonsense that people have tried to help you see the incorrectness of in varying degrees of exasperation, annoyance, anger and disgust. They failed, I doubt I'll do any better, but really, man, might wanna think before you go into a board for musicians and try to tell them how wrong their training is and how "most people" (leave this open to interpretation) do it this other way from most every musician I've encountered from the past 55 years of music (no, I'm not a contemporary of a good number of them, but whatever you play is built on the back of centuries of other stuff, most originating from 15th-century opera and orchestral tunes, which are E standard with little variance, and most of those the result of latter-day arrangement) is rude. The hypocrisy of your chastising another person here about assumption regarding your musical experience while you throw the same about carelessly is nothing short of stupefying.
So yeah, never too late to learn something new; learn that firstly, taking one's own advice about something one finds offensive as a preemptive measure goes a long way toward polite discourse and avoidance of insult. Secondly, learn that here on the Steam forums, last I checked (been a while), there isn't a good way for the creator of a thread to unsubscribe from such, and are very few ways at all.
Enjoy the read, and don't expect a TL;DR on it. Exercise a bit of restraint and maybe you might benefit in some obscure manner from this topic.
Sorry, your last post was so astoundingly mind-boggling I had to reply to it as well, and a quick question at the end for reference.
Baroque tuning is named for the Baroque period of music (pretty obvious I would think, but for clarity I'm explaining this anyway). Firstly, it was a primarily orchestral period, with one of the big innovations of the period being a move toward more folksy melodies played by a small-scale chamber group. Forefront of that innovation were the Latins: the French, Italians and Spanish, with most of the reall innovation from the Spanish, who took arrangements and in a number of cases instruments/training from the rather large percentage of Romany travelers in Espana Prima at the time. The Baroque tuning for guitar was for a 4- or 5-string variant (or evolution) of the lute the Spanish dubbed a gitarra (it was sized for portability, and at the time the full-sized version was called a gitar). The tuning for such was closest to a modern Open G or Open C, because travel and weather necessitated it, and there wasn't always time (or permissive weather) to tune up to a more reasonable E or A tuning.
You can still find a strong strain of Baroque-period tunings and performance in a traditional flamenco performance, and in a number of the instruments and arrangements in the average mariachi.
The Hz designation for tuning is important, no doubt, but it doesn't have near the gravitas you are attaching to it. A440 tuning is the universal standard for music, and has been for decades; damned few are going to bother caring that F Standard tuning is technically A495, because that is such inconsequential minutae in music theory that it's like trying to describe (to use a geek culture analogy) why people get so heated over the Vulcan/Romulan conflict in the Star Trek fan base, or the "Han shot first" bit to someone outside of Star Wars, or anything at all about the Supernatural fans to someone not a part of it, or why The Big Bang Theory, despite being a rehash and serialization of a good chunk of movies from the 80's like the Revenge of the Nerds series, Real Genius, Wargames, The Manhattan Project, The Wizard, with all the basic nerd tropes in one little group and setting, is so widely popular with non-geeks as well as geeks, and well-regarded scientists are known to watch regularly, despite the actual physics being complete rubbish.
Most anyone is going to find it a quicker reference point to latch onto and retain in learning "F Standard" or "C# Drop Bb" than trying to retain a sequence of numerics which while technically correct, isn't going to stick around because most people can't retain that wide of a selection of straight numeric chains, and shouldn't be expected to have such facility.
Yes, I'm saying you are right while still holding to the fact that you're wrong, and trying to explain the why.
Now, just so we're on the same page as to just how far down the rabbit-hole you've gone, I have a simple question I'd like to request you answer: how many measures are in a foot?
Nice history class mate, but let me remember you a couple things:
- The world most standard is A440
- So if you want to use another freq for A, a freq that can be related to a different note in A440, you usually mention the name of the note you would get in your E string now for A440.
- So when you hear that somebody is tuned to Eb, it may actually mean they are tuned in E for A415. You just don't hear anybody saying "I'm tuned to A415", because that is overcomplicating things. Not everybody is used to think in frequencies, so you just say you are tuned to Eb, and then everybody is happy because nowadays the world standard is to think in A440, even when there is somebody who doesn't even know that he is using A440.
Your list of bands that use Eb tuning but don't downtune their keyboards/pianos is funny, because some of them, like Stone Sour or Nickelback, doesn't even have a former keyboardist as a band member, they may have a band member who occasionally switches to keyboards or something like that, but these are not usually clasically trained piano musicians. Everybody is able to smash keys on a keyboard.
If you had to look at bands who use Eb tuning and have a former keyboard player who is actually any good, such as the keyboard players of Galneryus or Stratovarius, who are guys who play piano since very young, you'll find that the keyboards are always tune shifted the same way than everything else. If the guitar and bass are Eb standard, the keyboard is also halfstep down. When the guitars and bass are drop C#, the keyboard is also half step down. When these bands plays with a classically trained orchestras, like Galneryus did in a live performance with a small string group, the orchestra is usually given a transposed down version of the score, to prevent them from having to change the tuning of the violins and other stringed instruments, as these kind of fretless musicians usually play a lot by ear and they are very used to their standard pitch.
Also, at post #78 you have an example of a couple guitarists who also use this Eb tuning but think of their fretboard as if was E standard, and dude, I honestly think they have nothing to envy to the guitarists on the bands you mentioned, apart from the commercial success.
You simply cannot deny the fact that there are many pros out there tuning Eb while thinking E, but I understand why do you think it may be a wrong thing, or something that only weirdoos do. But believe me, it's not.
And if somebody is still wondering what is the point of Eb or any other lower standard tunings then, very simple: less string tension, easier to sing, legacy of baroque period. The pros who use these tunings don't do it just because "it sounds so dark and cool".
Me, right here! Every additional post.
I think it's your first post in this thread. If you don't really care about what we are discussing here, you could just ignore the thread, which is the normal thing when you don't have anything important to say.
I don't really wanted to extend this thread this much, I just opened this thread to ask about the existence of a feature in the game, and got answered in page 1. But as there is some people who keep thinking that this feature would be absolutely wrong, and it's because they just simply ignored the existence of a different way to think about tunings, I'm just trying to explain why is not that much wrong, backing my words with proofs and examples of real and succesful musicians, which some close minded people here are still trying to pretend to have not read yet.
And no, they are not thinking about their instruments in a wrong way.
And yes, they are mostly people with high musical skills who know what they are doing and why.
Let me finally tell you, in a attemp to reach an agreement, that it's okay if you want to tune in Eb and think in Eb, it's your personal choice, and it's the correct thing if you really wish to think about A being 440 in Eb tuning. But the game is lacking an option to represent the other way of thinking, which is not a pointless and unnatural thing as some people here believe, and actually is not a rare thing. Some people just ignore the fact that some of their favorite artists who use these lowered standard tunings may be actually thinking in E standard.
I think this is almost true.
Almost in that they don't think about their playing and instruments in E. They may "reference" them in E, especially when being interviewed or giving lessons.
My bet would be that most of them, if ask what chord/note was being played, would quickly either state or agree if asked that an A chord shape on the 5th fret is really G# or Ab.
Even in tab books I've used any tuning from Std E would include statements like "chord notations are in reference to Eb tuning". So, those tabs showed a A on the 5th fret for an Eb tuned song, but pre-referenced with a note to such.
Like I said earlier ... somewhere in the middle of this ... I understand your request for the option, and even admitted I might use it at times ... it would just be way down the list of features for me.
"I've been doing this so many years, so you must be wrong." "I've had many guitars in different tunings, so you must be wrong." "I've had a band with many LPs, so you must be wrong."
Pat in the back to everyone of you, congrats for your successfuls musical careers, It's nice that you appreciate your achievements in the music world. But could you, please, give solid statements and not vague arguments about your own life? If you read my posts, I didn't had to mention anything about my experiences in music at all. I only said, since the very first post, that I've been playing for a long time and I mostly use Eb tuning. You may also have guessed what kind of style I'm into mostly. And that's all you know about my playing and my deeds in music. I didn't need to be cocky about my own achievements. And maybe you think I don't have, but I just would not earn anything from telling them to random people in a videogame forum. I instead choosed to discuse the subject in a more mature way.
Thanks, I don't think it's the end of the world either if the game doesn't has this personal-taste-based option, but I would really use it all the time, because it's my personal taste, and it's not a taste I just invented, as some people here want to think, it is something that has been around for a long time and many people do it. I'll probably get the game sooner or later though.