Katanas

[Sam]

Katanas were the worst swords in the history of swordmanship.

[Loot]

Originally posted by Ģ◊иℤ◊⚡ℤ∀муpΛй:

So for the OP, you said they are the worst swords then tell me why they are still in use by many martial artists and european swords faded away entirely ?

Don't get me wrong when I say this, I am a fan of the Katana, but... HEMA would like a word with you.

[~Lazy_Eggs~]

naw he's right on being bad, but iono about the history of swordsmanship ... katanas tend to bend a lot and it was designed to bend and not break, so it can be easily repaired ... but it was breaking b4 they designed it to bend.

Samurai's are trained with polearm/bow as their primaries and katana secondary.

The peasant soldiers are trained to use polearm aka Yari.

The best weapon for war are the polearm and bow and not swords/mace.

weapons are designed for a purpose

I believe overly size swords like odachi/claymore are the worst swords in swordsmanship to be honest. Halberds/yari/Ji fulfills their oversized sword roles as well as the spear ...

again .... long wood handle with metal at the tip (polearm) is the best weapon and halberds are the best of the best.

I think only the Romans standardized swords for battle because of the tactics they use. They weren't really invincible, but fighting rag tag barbarian armies isn't a challenge after romans adapted to them. Romans won through culture wars against other dying nations rather than beating them on the battlefield.

an immovable formation is immune to shock charges from the celts/germanic tribes ... therefore short sword since they are ramming into your shields and the spear is too long.

[~Lazy_Eggs~]

Originally posted by Ģ◊иℤ◊⚡ℤ∀муpΛй:

Originally posted by Joreel:

Good to know as I've been fighting with one for almost 30 yrs.

I own 1 Wakizashi and 1 Katana to have a proper daisho as its authentic, i have them for quite a while since pretty much 1 month after i started Iaido they replaced the bokken, they were forged in our times and arent worth much despite that they were still quite expensive since i wanted high quality ones since a real nihonto is way over my price limit, but my best piece is a shin gunto from 1942 a real authentic relict from ww2 i keep it in a display case, and dont use it for the kata obviously.

While some higher class officers in the japanese army had their family/clan swords left from the past era's the remaining officers without the same standing and history had the choice to recieve a shin gunto they are also Katana but a little more crude and can be compared with modern katanas from today but even then its a relict and worth quite a sum, but thats nothing compared to 200+ year old katanas i cant imagine how expensive one of them is especially if it was used by a famous clan.

So for the OP, you said they are the worst swords then tell me why they are still in use by many martial artists and european swords faded away entirely ?

I would say it could be marketing and the ninja craze in the 80's.

[Ģ◊иℤ◊⚡ℤ∀муpΛй]

Originally posted by Loot:

Originally posted by Ģ◊иℤ◊⚡ℤ∀муpΛй:

So for the OP, you said they are the worst swords then tell me why they are still in use by many martial artists and european swords faded away entirely ?

Don't get me wrong when I say this, I am a fan of the Katana, but... HEMA would like a word with you.

its great that you mention fencing, there are actually inofficial tournaments between Kendo and fencers and the outcome is completely random, since both "fighters" are tought to end the fight with 1 strike if possible, if they agree to regular fencing rules the fencer will most likey win because the kendo fighter cannot use his full potential but if you fight without the classic rules and have a real fight the fencer has little to no chance to win the fight, as they are not used to fight strong rushing fighters they are also stabbing only and block only light attacks and kendo has everything as its disposal from strikes to stabbing theres a ton of kata variants available along with styles this is different from dojo to dojo, and from what ive seen the fencers dont really have a chance as the kendo fighters usually rush in with a combination of attacks and angles this overhelms the fencer since this is not their style, if we talk about realistic values i dont know if fencers could penetrate the samurai lamellar armor in the first place, they need to focus on hitting vital points, pretty much the same situation with a european knight and a samurai its vital points as well, but unlike the knight the other 2 candicates wear light armor only and are highly manouverable.

[Loot]

Originally posted by Ģ◊иℤ◊⚡ℤ∀муpΛй:

Originally posted by Loot:

Don't get me wrong when I say this, I am a fan of the Katana, but... HEMA would like a word with you.

its great that you mention fencing, there are actually inofficial tournaments between Kendo and fencers and the outcome is completely random, since both "fighters" are tought to end the fight with 1 strike if possible, if they agree to regular fencing rules the fencer will most likey win because the kendo fighter cannot use his full potential but if you fight without the classic rules and have a real fight the fencer has little to no chance to win the fight, as they are not used to fight strong rushing fighters they are also stabbing only and block only light attacks and kendo has everything as its disposal from strikes to stabbing theres a ton of kata variants available along with styles this is different from dojo to dojo, and from what ive seen the fencers dont really have a chance as the kendo fighters usually rush in with a combination of attacks and angles this overhelms the fencer since this is not their style, if we talk about realistic values i dont know if fencers could penetrate the samurai lamellar armor in the first place, they need to focus on hitting vital points, pretty much the same situation with a european knight and a samurai its vital points as well, but unlike the knight the other 2 candicates wear light armor only and are highly manouverable.

That would be interesting to watch. If I remember correctly, rapier / epee-style fencing swords are pretty light and bendy, right? Doesn't Kendo use a bamboo sword that's on the sturdier side? I haven't really researched it, but I'd imagine it would be a lot different from blocking another fencing sword. I'll definitely have a look at some videos later.

There are also different types of fencing swords, so that would change things. Are we strictly talking the one-handed rapier-style ones, or the longer, sturdier, longsword-style ones?

When I mentioned HEMA, I envisioned the Longsword, Sabre, and other European swords.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GsuThgw6CLM

[Ģ◊иℤ◊⚡ℤ∀муpΛй]

Originally posted by Loot:

Originally posted by Ģ◊иℤ◊⚡ℤ∀муpΛй:

its great that you mention fencing, there are actually inofficial tournaments between Kendo and fencers and the outcome is completely random, since both "fighters" are tought to end the fight with 1 strike if possible, if they agree to regular fencing rules the fencer will most likey win because the kendo fighter cannot use his full potential but if you fight without the classic rules and have a real fight the fencer has little to no chance to win the fight, as they are not used to fight strong rushing fighters they are also stabbing only and block only light attacks and kendo has everything as its disposal from strikes to stabbing theres a ton of kata variants available along with styles this is different from dojo to dojo, and from what ive seen the fencers dont really have a chance as the kendo fighters usually rush in with a combination of attacks and angles this overhelms the fencer since this is not their style, if we talk about realistic values i dont know if fencers could penetrate the samurai lamellar armor in the first place, they need to focus on hitting vital points, pretty much the same situation with a european knight and a samurai its vital points as well, but unlike the knight the other 2 candicates wear light armor only and are highly manouverable.

That would be interesting to watch. If I remember correctly, fencing swords are pretty light and bendy, right? Doesn't Kendo use a bamboo sword that's on the sturdier side? I haven't really researched it, but I'd imagine it would be a lot different from blocking another fencing sword. I'll definitely have a look at some videos later.

There are also different types of fencing swords, so that would change things. Are we strictly talking the one-handed rapier-style ones, or the longer, sturdier, longsword-style ones?

When I mentioned HEMA, I envisioned the Longsword, Sabre, and other European swords.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GsuThgw6CLM

Yes Kenodka use either Bokken or Shinai. during basic training with other mates you will use the Shinai which is highly customizable and then theres the bokken which is mostly used for solo kata because unlike in Iaido a real katana is not allowed in kendo and they use the bokken as replacement for a real katana, personally i dislike the training with the Shinai even tho i have it as well since i tried out kendo as well im not really using as there is no purpose any more for me, more on this below.

The first thing you realize is the massive size of the Shinai its almost as long as a dai-katana thats why i dislike it however they come in smaller sizes but they are all bigger than the usual katana, the most kendoka would have it easier than others if they did the kata with a real dai-katana but for Iaido you need to train with a regular katana, we actually had a girl in our dojo who owned a ninjato she was doing ninjutsu training mostly but also visited our Iaido dojo anyway the Ninjato kinda looks like a Wakizashi in size but its slightly smaller and has a straight blade, but thats a different story and its only used by those who joined ninjutsu schools aKa todays way to become a "ninja" they are extremely rare compared to regular kendo or Iaido dojos, and have more than just ken-jutsu to train, they also have close combat training hand to hand combat and many more diciplites its highly complex but way too hard for me and its not my style either you need to be extremely agile for that, well crap it got off topic after all well thats it so far on this one.

Yeah i checked out HEMA in detail today, i didnt really knew europe had actual sword fighting groups, i always thought theres just fencing remaining besides the larp event.

[Vargas Erikson]

This is cool

[Kaynsus]

So what?

[Banz]

Darn should have brought my machete

[JACKDAW]

Originally posted by sam:

Katanas were the worst swords in the history of swordmanship.

I think someone,s katana stuck in your butt

[Sam]

Originally posted by JACKDAW:

Originally posted by sam:

Katanas were the worst swords in the history of swordmanship.

I think someone,s katana stuck in your butt

probably yours, the one you bought at the mall.

[SEKTENGURU]

The wakizashi was the way to go.

Originally posted by sam:

Originally posted by Joreel:

Good to know as I've been fighting with one for almost 30 yrs.

you must be really bad then

[Loot]

Originally posted by .:

The wakizashi was the way to go.

Originally posted by sam:

you must be really bad then

:lunar2019grinningpig:

What? That's half the length of a Katana. It's akin to carrying a dagger.

[Shirakani]

OP isn't actually wrong. Actual legit katana made during the time period, at least from then up until to the end of the Shogunate and the beginning of the Meiji Restoration, was generally made with very poor grade metal as Japan had far inferior access to iron and even less steel. They also did not have the same forging techniques from the West.

But, if we're going to talk the DESIGN of the weapon, ok now that's something else. It's a very practical design for rapid slashing and, if Japan had a way to create a katana of equal steel quality as Western swords... the victor would be up in the air if a katana had to face a longsword.

The rest of everything is simply myth and romanticism. The katana is the most romanticised sword on the planet and it's abilities in media are often exaggerated to ridiculous levels. Its always associated with 'cutting faster than the eye can see' techniques when the reality is that outside of Iaijutsu/Battoujutsu, there aren't any such techniques at all.

But, fantasy is cool, so we accept it, and here we are.

[Two Square Lights]

L bait