Steam For Linux On ARM?

[Balderick]

My favourite Steam Machine is Shield TV where I am currently using a cloud gaming vm running Steam for windows with Quadro P5000. This has completely replaced my more than VR ready pc.

Recent news about changes to Linux kernel 5.1 helps bring Linux desktops to ARM devices and after finding older videos showing pc games running through Steam on ARM devices has me interested in setting up multi OS Shield TV and interested in Steam for Linux again. Ref: https://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/3072289/raspberry-pis-3a-will-get-linux-51-kernel-support

This video shows a Valve pc game running through Steam client but does not show how Steam was launched so Steam and game are unlikely to be running natively on ARM. Counter Strike 1.6 was possibly Linux version being streamed from an x86_64 machine using a third party streaming app. We can see at begining of video armv7 CPU and Tegra K1 GPU are listed so the tablet itself is running a Linux for ARM OS, likely being Linux4Tegra. The video is not high enough res or high enough quality to see icon and text in tab when Steam client is brought into focus for to see what streaming app was used.


https://youtu.be/XrQSJmhc0cM



Can anybody explain the steps needed to recompile Steam for Linux so it works on an ARM device running Linux4Tegra?

Are we more likely to see the arrival of Steam Link App for ARM app rather than a Steam for Linux on ARM client?

[meheezen]

subscribing to post, this seems interesting...


- inquirer article seems misleading for some reason
- video does't really show how its done, AFAIK it could be streaming the game or using x86 emulation to run Steam, hence it can only afford to run CS 1.6 (you lose a lot of performance from emulation)

[Balderick]

I agree about the Inquirer article it should never refer to full Linux desktop distros or x86 apps running natively on ARM devices.

It misled me and is why I am now asking what I am!

Linux4Tegra runs Ubuntu desktop but is not full Linux desktop or has full Ubuntu repos you find on x86 or x64 devices.

Finding that video showing Counter Strike and Steam client running on a five year old tablet does sort of show major sauce going on. How on earth did Steam for Linux get recompiled for Linux4Tegra? And how did Counter Strike get recompiled for Linux4Tegra?

There is a common denominator there - Valve. 😎


If you pause the video at beginning showing system specs you can see it is running Linux4Tegra or some other Linux on ARM variant because armv7 CPU and Tegra GPU are listed showing Ubuntu and everything running in Ubuntu is running natively on ARM.

Here is another video showing what system specs in Ubuntu show when we know for sure it is running Linux4Tegra on Jetson Nano for comparison.


https://youtu.be/5xrRxz5633I

All this has me wanting to check out Linux4Tegra on Shield TV which has much stronger GPU compared to Jetson Nano or Shield Tablet.

There is old Dolphin guide describing how to install Linux4Tegra on Shield TV

https://forums.dolphin-emu.org/Thread-how-to-boot-ubuntu-16-04-on-the-shield-tv-with-x1-gpu-drivers

That Inquirer article does at least indicate it is going to get much easier to install Linux on ARM desktop distros on ARM devices very soon.

Linux4Tegra is highly focused on development work, not really a daily desktop environment or gaming environment.

So because it is possible to run Steam client on ARM I would like to understand how better as my favourite cloud gaming service provides a Linux client but no web client to use on Jetson Nano so I could make Jetson Nano into a Steam Machine using steam for windows in cloud gaming vm with Quadro P5000. Ultimately I would like to learn or understand what is needed to recompile a Linux app for Linux on ARM when no ARM64 source code is available - just like Steam for Linux.


Why Linux gamers are not all over cloud gaming on non x86_64 devices already has me confused!

Pc gaming without owning a gaming spec PC! Come on, why they so slow to catch on? prejudices based on misinformation and myths

During my adventures with all the hype for Steam Machines I was fully onboard and enjoyed beta testing SteamOS on a potato pc and was watching YouTube videos about Valve and their partners showing off OEM Steam Machines at CES 2014 and stumbled across Nvidias keynote. Let's just say that is how I found out about Shield devices and to be honest I nearly fell off my couch laughing at Jensen Huang when was making claims like "gaming on android is now on par with latest pc gaming graphical features" and "ARM is coming to disrupt pc gaming space" when announcing Tegra K1, Shield Tablet and UE4.

I bought a Shield TV and Shield Tablet in 2016 when I ordered all the parts for building my own VR ready Steam Machine.

Today my gaming rig is most expensive waste of space and hasn't been used for gaming for just over a year.

Now I no longer laughing at Jensen and think he is greatest teacher on planet earth right now. I go out of my way to watch every single keynote he presents in its entirety. Several times ...

When announcing RTX GRID Servers, RTX GRID Server Pods and GeForce Now Alliance Jensen dropped some clues about GRID virtualization platform at GTC 2019 indicating new types of GRID licenses are incoming adding to the vApp, vPC and vDWS options currently available, which he will share more info on "in the future".

https://store.steampowered.com/sale/valve_index/

What hardware is inside that puppy? Jetson TX2 SoC like Magic Leap?

Does it support cloud gaming, Hybrid Cloud Rendering and RTX ootb?

https://www.roadtovr.com/exclusive-how-nvidia-research-is-reinventing-the-display-pipeline-for-the-future-of-vr-part-1/


These are some of things which has me very excited about the future of gaming computer science and is why I am extremely interested in getting Steam running in Linux4Tegra on Shield TV.

Steam Universe has expanded way beyond what most of us can comprehend, I am sure of that.

[Aoi Blue]

The way one would be able to do this is one of two ways:
1. SteamLink: The base SteamLink client is available for ARM Linux. It is what the prepackaged SteamLink devices use. Just fetch it from Valve's github page. This of course means running the main steam client on an x86 Machine, be it Windows, Mac or Linux.
2. JIT or Hybrid JIT/AOT x86 under ARM Multilib. This can be done using a combination of Bridged Linux Containers and KQEMU.

Number 2 is the only case where Steam is actually truly running ON the ARM processor.

Option 1, i.e. "cloud gaming" has one major flaw: Latency.
This isn't an issue with streaming over a LAN as much, and is completely a non-issue on games that don't require low-latency control response due to their nature.

However, don't expect having a decent game of Doom or CS:GO on an Internet cloud gaming rig any time soon. On the other hand, playing any number of other games will be downright simple.

[Balderick]

Have to admit, you are spot on meheezen, that game is most likely being streamed from an x86_64 host pc as we never see how Steam client is launched. We can confirm Steam and game is being shown in Linux on ARM OS (likely Linux4Tegra) but have no way to determine or have any reason to think Steam and Counter Strike are running natively.

I edited OP appropriately to try and describe more accurately and ask more rational questions.

[Balderick]

Aah wow Aoi Blue I had totally overlooked Steam Link box wares being open sourced and it basically Steam for Linux on ARM client since it was an ARM powered device.


Thanks.

There is no denying cloud gaming adds latency compared to local pc.

Have to admit I suck at FPS but I'll install CS:GO and show you what current cloud gaming tech looks like. I just use TV and controller so far from a low latency gaming experience compared to KB + m and 144hz display user, but you may be surprised.


I will get it installed and get some practice in before sharing.

[Aoi Blue]

Publicado originalmente por Balderick:

Have to admit, you are spot on meheezen, that game is most likely being streamed from an x86_64 host pc as we never see how Steam client is launched. We can confirm Steam and game is being shown in Linux on ARM OS (likely Linux4Tegra) but have no way to determine or have any reason to think Steam and Counter Strike are running natively.

I edited OP appropriately to try and describe more accurately and ask more rational questions.

Yes, however "cloud gaming" from an Internet server is another question.

There are latency issues with many, but not all, games that many hardcore gamers like. While DoTA 2 and The Borderlands Series will play smooth as silk over these connections, DOOM, TF2 and CS:GO will be a nightmare. It's all a matter of at what point the game becomes unplayable from latency. If you can handle over 120ms of latency, the game will play nice, if you can't, well it's not going to run well until much later.

Just look at the round trip time to live on your ping time, now add that to the maximum latency the game hits. That's your latency time for the game. Not a pretty sight for playing twitch shooters, but perfectly fine for less latency-critical games.

[Balderick]

Is there an app or debugging tool I can grab latency info like RTT in game ?

Have used PingPlotter to ping servers to prove high ping and low RTT was not a local network problem but not sure how to use it for calculating what you suggest.

I find the debugging info for Steams native streaming tech most useful but Steam Link App does not play nice with my cloud vm since the recent Steam Anywhere and Steam network API updates.

Might roll back to stable Steam client to see if I can use Steam Link App to show you debugging info in game using cloud vm.

I'll start another thread in Steam Universe to discuss this as you have made me realise a Steam for Linux on ARM client is highly unlikely.

We far more likely to use ARM devices being used as streaming client, for many reasons.

[Aoi Blue]

Publicado originalmente por Balderick:

Have used PingPlotter to ping servers to prove high ping and low RTT was not a local network problem but not sure how to use it for calculating what you suggest.

Yes, you do know "Cloud Gaming" doesn't refer to streaming over the lan, but streaming the video all the way from the host server.

What you are referring to is "In Home Streaming" and "VM Streaming" A completely different technology because it needs no lag compensation, nor abstracted allocation of hardware as service.

Abstraction of services is what makes cloud gaming cloud gaming, not the fact that it's coming from another machine. The purpose of cloud is that if one machine breaks, it can automatically remove it and move it's clients to another machine, anywhere in the world. Of course with latency restrictions, generally that would be within the immediate area.

This is what cloud technology is. It's not just a popular name for network connectivity, it means abstracting things in such a manner that they can be reallocated regardless of location. Local cloud is when this is used in one location (or even across multiple software servers on a single system) to provide the benefits of this fallover technology.

Just because something is streaming over the network, doesn't make it "cloud."

An instance of a system-local cloud technology is BTRFS pooling, BTW. It has all the function of XFS without the network connectivity overhead.

An example of local cloud technology is a local Object Base. You could simply plug in dozens of additional servers, and they would all coordinate, lower priority objects moving to two or more servers, and even compressed if so configured while highest priority objects get mirrored across all of them.

On in-home streaming, It's "Plug and Play" meaning the computer detects the address, contacts it, and interfaces directly. If a new one gets plugged in, it can't just be handed off. It needs to reinitialize the whole process. That's not cloud.

[Balderick]

Ha I remembered a fellow cloud gamer shared a CS:GO video, on his first time playing it and it is amusing at beginning where is working out button mapping but after a little while he was not getting REKT but doing the rekting.

https://youtu.be/MCcX-Ijqn1g

I can assure you cloud gaming is comparable to local gaming experience for casual players.

I just a casual gamer and have never experienced 144hz gaming and don't use KB +m ever.

I appreciate there are issues with cloud gaming but I have a £2500 more than VR ready pc sitting redundant doing nothing because playing pc games without using a local pc just utterly floats my boat.

High end pc gaming is over rated and over priced imo

Cloud gaming brings pc gaming to the billions of folks who have never experienced gaming on PC.

More and more games will be delivered from the cloud, just like all other media and all other internet services.


I just an early adopter of next gen tech. Cloud gaming and cloud delivered interactive content is going to change how everybody accesses any media.

[Aoi Blue]

Publicado originalmente por Balderick:

Ha I remembered a fellow cloud gamer shared a CS:GO video, on his first time playing it and it is amusing at beginning where is working out button mapping but after a little while he was not getting REKT but doing the rekting.

https://youtu.be/MCcX-Ijqn1g

It is NOT cloud gaming, quit using that false term.

nVidia frequently falsely uses terms like that. It is not Cloud technology. It is simple VNC.

nVidia commonly uses terms falsely and they have been sued for false advertising on many occasion for it. Their most recent one is "Real Time Ray Tracing" Which was actually "Pathtrace LIghting" and not Ray Tracing at all. Real Time Raytracing is something completely different used for previews of professionally rendered scenes, and is all speckled and ugly.

Cloud Gaming is something entirely different than Steam In-Home Streaming.

This technology is called "Virtual Network Computing" or "Streaming Desktop" It is not a cloud technology. It is not abstracted into a service. It's source is not abstracted by dynamic allocation systems. It is not a cloud technology.

Just because nVidia's marketing lies about what a technology is, doesn't mean you have to repeat the lie.

[Balderick]

That guy is using a remote streamed cloud gaming vm located in DC and is definitely a cloud gamer.

I know what the term cloud gaming means because I am a cloud gamer.

Cloud gaming means I remote stream from a high end gaming spec virtual machine in the Data Centre.to a device not even capable of running pc games natively.


I know what streaming over LAN is. I know what remote streaming is. I know what cloud gaming and streaming from my own or other remote pc is. Streaming over internet is not necessarily cloud gaming.


Using Steam Anywhere to remote stream any pc or any vm is cloud gaming because Steam Anywhere makes your host pc into your own personal cloud.


I can use Steam Link App to remote stream using In Home Streaming a cloud vm using Steam stable client, it cloud gaming too.

[Aoi Blue]

GRIDFORCE NOW, is nVidia's REAL cloud gaming service.

In-home streaming is not.

Also, if he played against a real professional playing CS:GO who was playing on a local PC he would be dead in the water. Just because he can pwn a few noobs doesn't change that.

Framerate does not equal latency. Your latency is the time between you input a command to when the result actually registers on your screen. This averages 200ms to 150ms on your cloud gaming service.

Meanwhile, on a PC that has tuned settings that is 1,7ms on Valve official server, and 1ms on a professional run gamer's server. This would be with a 1 frame lerp configuration This is regardless of network lag. Most players more casual players play with a 2 frame lerp, that is 3,4ms on Valve official servers, and 2ms on most professional servers. As of why are

That is enough time for a pro to squeeze 2 sniper rounds into your character's skull. Like I said, he would be dead against a pro.

[Balderick]

Whàt?

I thought you knew what you were on about.

GFN is not only cloud gaming service. I dislike GFN for all the same reasons I dislike SteamOS. Gimped Steam client and gimped desktop.


Now a virtual windows running in a vm giving access to full windows desktop and full steam client running stable Steam means I use IHS and NOT Steam Anywhere if I streamed that VM located in DC to my Shield TV using Steam Link App is definitely cloud gaming.

It well known remote streaming works with IHS, it was just never officially supported until Valve announced Steam Anywhere.


You confused with semantics or name of IHS

When I mentioned IHS I meant the streaming tech in steam stable client that all. I never stream over LAN because I do not use any local pc. Because cloud gaming works so well for me.


Your bad.

Shield TV is an open platform I can choose any cloud gaming service with android client or web client.

Paperspace, Shadow, GCP, AWS, Azure or IBM all offer cloud gaming services with full windows VDI. Some offer Linux OS options too, like Paperspace.

There also a fast growing number of vApp type cloud gaming services like GFN or Stadia where you just launch game and never get to interact with desktop or OS.
Vortex


Then there a fast growing number of streaming apps like Parsec, Rainway and Dixper which can stream any pc or any other device to any other display with an internet connection.


Oooph that ray tracing stuff you claim is false, or not entirely accurate.


What is your definition of "cloud"?

Virtual Network Computing is cloud delivered if host pc is a vm located in DC

So if that host pc is used for gaming then it is a cloud gaming PC.


Simple as.

What about Gabens Faster Penguins speech? Should I start bashing Gaben for not much of that being true or fulfilled?

Why has gaming on Linux users not increased proportionally to growing Steam users ?


Steam for Linux was released before windows 10. So there were zero per cent of steam users using win 10 when win 10 was released.

/rant

____________________


We all human and say things wrong or describe things inaccurately.


We all Steam users, let's just chill. I actually really appreciate your first post and don't get why you went all flame bait on me.



Sorry for falling for your flame bait.

[Aoi Blue]

I already told me the IT Industry Accepted definition of cloud. Scroll back, if you can't understand it, you aren't qualified to make the assessment of the technology.

Remote hosting is not cloud. Client Server is not cloud. Cloud means NETWORK ABSTRACTED. If you don't know what means, you aren't qualified to be a reviewer of Gaming technology, or any IT technology.

Additionally I presume by your response you don't know what lerp is. Can you tell me what it is? Do you know how to adjust your Lerp in source engine games? How about ID2, ID3 and ID4 engine games?

Also, do you know what input latency is? Can you explain it to me?

Simply put, I don't think you have the tech cred to make the assessment you are making.

[Balderick]

Framerate does not equal latency. Your latency is the time between you input a command to when the result actually registers on your screen. This averages 200ms to 150ms on your cloud gaming service..

Untrue. Further client is away from DC higher ping. Higher ping equates to higher latency. This means latency is highly variable and not a constant amongst different users. Also network stability is major cause of latency , so peak times can cause latency. Display decoding , how busy game servers are, how busy cloud vm servers are..... All mean latency is variable.

Linus Tech Tips did a tour of Shadow servers in DC and explained Shadow devs claim latency can be as low as 5ms additional to what local pc gamers can expect using same local display and same local network.

Not quite as white and black as you make out.

Just because somebody is not good player does not mean they can't enjoy gaming. Just because a gamer has higher ping or higher latency than other players does not mean they can not enjoy gaming.

Gaming is called gaming because it is meant for fun. Not everybody wants to be or can be an elite pro athlete competing for the exports million dollar cash pot.