Rank up river crew

[RoxxasTheDemonslayer]

raided 3 times and they still all lvl 1 including my own guy.
do i need to lvl up the building or something?

[Psyringe]

You need to level up the building with the Jomsvikings. That will increase the level of the Jomsvikings available for hire. Then you hire those.

Apart from your personal Jomsviking, Jomsvikings don't really level up. You just earn the opportunity to hire higher-leveled ones by successively improving the building.

[lucent]

You need rations to keep them alive, but I never seem to have any. I may find a little during the Jomsviking raids, but always lose people from my crew.

[RoxxasTheDemonslayer]

Originally posted by Psyringe:

You need to level up the building with the Jomsvikings. That will increase the level of the Jomsvikings available for hire. Then you hire those.

Apart from your personal Jomsviking, Jomsvikings don't really level up. You just earn the opportunity to hire higher-leveled ones by successively improving the building.

ah. that explains a lot. cept why my personal one is also still lvl 1.

[RoxxasTheDemonslayer]

Originally posted by lucent:

You need rations to keep them alive, but I never seem to have any. I may find a little during the Jomsviking raids, but always lose people from my crew.

rations seem to be found in the small civilian hamlet raid spots, it seems to be their main purpose.

[lucent]

Maybe I need to pay attention more...hehehe

I am trying River Severn and I never had a map with seven raid locations so far. High lighting Wyther Farm does say gain crew rations.

edit:

It's amazing how I even got my settlement to 5 so far, seeing how scattered I am. I also see it's only allowing me 4 rations since that's all I can carry. Opened a chest with bread and stuff, nothing given.

edit:

Then of course there are chests you can't open if that's all you can carry. Couldn't finish the last raid, but went back to my settlement and got my Hall to lvl 3.

[Dorok]

You can increase ship carry capacity, it's an improvement available with Vagn.

Hall level 3 is a must, not really to have all Jormvikings at level 3, but a mix of level 2 and 3 is solid and fun. Your Jormviking leader is the only one that level up from river raids.

For rations, Jormviking start with their level - 1, and their max ration is their level. But I don't remind the main character starts with any ration. That is River Raids are special and it's not using player rations of core game.

[Psyringe]

Originally posted by lucent:

You need rations to keep them alive, but I never seem to have any. I may find a little during the Jomsviking raids, but always lose people from my crew.

Rations can be found in the small settlements along the river - small, unfortified villages with just a few houses. Most of these have one (sometimes two) big chests, which yield one ration for each of your crewmembers when you loot them. Note that you cannot loot those chests when your entire crew (including yourself) already has their max amount of rations. For crew members, this figure is determined by their level.

The combat AI of this game is a bit lackluster - everyone is just running semi-randomly across the battlefield. Fighters of both sides can also trap themselves in situations where they are sitting ducks - for example, if there's an enemy on a balcony with a ranged weapon, and there is no path to the balcony, then that single enemy can take out your entire crew one by one. They can't reach the enemy and they are too stupid to stay in cover or leave the area. You have to take out that enemy yourself, and quickly.

For me, the easiest way to do river raids was to mostly ignore that my crew exists. I land my ship in the vicinity without starting a raid, then I sneak into the enemy camp and take out all enemies one by one. Then I sound the horn, so that my crew runs in and helps me loot the big chests. Since no enemies are left at this point, no one ever gets hurt. It's a very "safe" way of doing this content, though it doesn't feel much like a "raid", so it might not be everybody's cup of tea.

[Dorok]

Originally posted by Psyringe:

...
The combat AI of this game is a bit lackluster - everyone is just running randomly across the battlefield. Fighters of both sides can also trap themselves in situations where they are sitting ducks - for example, if there's an enemy on a balcony with a ranged weapon, and there is no path to the balcony, then that single enemy can take out your entire crew one by one. They can't reach the enemy and they are too stupid to stay in cover or leave the area. You have to take out that enemy yourself, and quickly.

That's not at all the game I played.

On start you clearly never learned play properly with Jormvikings, stop rush fight and observe more, then help where your help is the best, and you'll see all your comment is wrong:
- They don't run randomly lol.
- Many Jormvkings use long range so it's no balconery that will stop kill the enemy.
- Jormvikings use stairs and ladders but perhaps not other ways of climbing. But firstly it's rare cases, secondly it matter in River Raids only in some rare locations.

You clearly didn't used much Jormvikings I did use them a lot and I'm well placed to know that your observation are wrong, at best/worse it's quite rare cases.

Originally posted by Psyringe:

For me, the easiest way to do river raids was to mostly ignore that my crew exists. I land my ship in the vicinity without starting a raid, then I sneak into the enemy camp and take out all enemies one by one.

It's not efficient because that's a lot slower than just ensure have Jormvikings at level 2/3, that you quote team rations levels along the raid, and do a very fast ration raid when needed, that you don't bother rush to enemies but instead consider where your help is better.

Moreover Jormvikings fall is only injury healing during one River Raid, and Jormvkings are cheap. So with two teams of Jormvkings, the fallen aren't that important, they only let you less Jormvkings in next assault of the same River Raid. But at next river raid you'll have a full team again.

[Psyringe]

Originally posted by Dorok:

That's not at all the game I played.

Well, it did happen in the game that I played. ;) But we may be talking about different situations. The examples that I gave are extreme situations that (as I was saying) _can_ happen, I'm not saying that they are happening all the time.

Originally posted by Dorok:

On start you clearly never learned play properly with Jormvikings, stop rush fight and observe more, then help where your help is the best,

So instead of considering that you may have misread my post, or that there might be some other misunderstanding going on, you're immediately concluding that I "clearly" never learned to play properly and need to "observe more". Without even asking me about the observations that I did draw my conclusions from. Well. Do you really think that you have enough data to draw that conclusion?

If you had simply asked instead of assuming things, then I could have told you that my conclusions are based on observations where I intentionally drew away from combat and observed how the Jomsvikings would handle themselves on their own. I was doing that because I'm interested in AI development in games.

Originally posted by Dorok:

- They don't run randomly lol.

Well, I changed it to "semi-randomly" before you replied, because I noticed that just calling it "randomly" doesn't fit. After a Jomsviking has picked a target, they pursue them, so it's not completely random, though there are of course random factors involved.

But my frame of reference for the "running around randomly" remark was the actual historical reality. As far as we know, viking pillagers (as well as the defenders) would form shield walls which then marched against each other. In AC Valhalla, no one even tries to build a formation. You don't even see fighters covering each others' backs (which would be the most simple way of coordinated fighting) unless they randomly end up in such a position. And compared to actual historical battles, the fighters in AC Valhalla really just run around like headless chickens. ;)

What the AI is doing (based on my observations, which we can of course discuss), is that each fighter picks a target based on proximity (with some random factors involved), and then attacks and pursues that target. Fighters never coordinate their efforts in any way, so each battle quickly breaks down to individual fights all over the place, while all fighters are mostly blind to the bigger picture of the battle, unless there's a scripted event going on.

Jomsvikings in particular may break their pursuit of an enemy to e.g. throw torches, seek out treasure, or respond to being attacked. The point when they do that, seems also to be chosen randomly, though it is of course possible that there is a pattern to it that I just haven't discovered. If you have, feel free to share your data. :)

Originally posted by Dorok:

- Many Jormvkings use long range so it's no balconery that will stop kill the enemy.

In the scenes that I have observed (again, I'm talking about taking myself out of the battle and watching how the Jomsvikings handle themselves), they can fight reasonably well against enemies on raised platforms with no cover. However, if there's an actual _balcony_ with cover (e.g. a railing), the Jomsvikings can't handle that well. They don't seem to take the cover into account when throwing their long-range weapons.

There is one scene in particular, a relatively small yard with a statue in the center, surrounded by balconies with (if I remember correctly) arbalests on them. The Jomsvikings were completely unable of handling that situation. They threw long-range weapons at the railings while the arbalests were ducking down, reloading their weapons. The Jomsvikings didn't even stay in cover themselves, they kept running around aimlessly. My guess is that they were trying to find a way to the balconies, but since these cannot be reached in that scenario, the AI didn't know what to do and just kept exposing the Jomsvikings to the enemy fire.

Originally posted by Dorok:

- Jormvikings use stairs and ladders but perhaps not other ways of climbing. But firstly it's rare cases, secondly it matter in River Raids only in some rare locations.

Yes, that was my observation as well. Jomsvikings use stairs and ladders, but don't e.g. climb on the rooftops of houses. (Enemies don't do that either unless they are in pursuit of the player). I agree that the fairly egregious examples that I gave are rare cases, that's why I said "it CAN happen" and not "it happens all the time".

I do think that the AI in other combat situations isn't inherently "better" than in the situations that I described, but I think that the AI's weaknesses don't affect the outcome of combat as much in other situations (partly because the enemies are even more inept than the Jomsvikings). But perhaps that's a rather academic distinction. ;)

But let's get back to the question that prompted my post: A user said that they tend to lose Jomsvikings in battle. One thing that I noticed while observing my Jomsvikings, is that the wounded ones seem to use the same AI as others.

This obviously makes little sense. The Jomsvikings have various tasks: fighting, pillaging, looking for treasure chests that they could alert the players to. If a crew member is wounded, then it would make sense for them to seek out treasure chests while leaving the fighting to the ones that can still take a couple hits. But that does not happen, as far as I can tell. Dangerously wounded crew members also don't stay in cover, they attack and expose themselves just like healthy ones, until they take one hit too many, drop down in an open spot, and call for assistance. If your observations are different, please share your data.

So if someone is saying "I keep losing Jomsvikings", then - based on my observations - I'd definitely say that the lackluster AI is part of the problem, and that the AI could have been coded in a way that makes Jomsvikings work better as a team and protects wounded ones better. But again, if you have data to share that contradicts that, I'm always open to discuss it. :)

Originally posted by Dorok:

You clearly didn't used much Jormvikings I did use them a lot and I'm well placed to know that your observation are wrong, at best/worse it's quite rare cases.

Based on your previous posts here across the past few months, I do not doubt that you extensive and detailed knowledge about this game's combat. However, I think you either misunderstood what I was trying to say, or you simply look at the same data with a different frame of reference. I do think that your conclusions about my playstyle and experience were premature, though.

Originally posted by Dorok:

Originally posted by Psyringe:

For me, the easiest way to do river raids was to mostly ignore that my crew exists. I land my ship in the vicinity without starting a raid, then I sneak into the enemy camp and take out all enemies one by one.

It's not efficient because that's a lot slower than just ensure have Jormvikings at level 2/3, that you quote team rations levels along the raid, and do a very fast ration raid when needed, that you don't bother rush to enemies but instead consider where your help is better.

Yes, I agree that this is more efficient way of playing. As you can see in the line that I wrote, I was describing the _easiest_ way to do river raids (for me), not the most _efficient_ way to do them. Personally, I find it easier to do things myself than babysitting 8 NPCs that spread themselves all over the place without any coordination. Other players' perspective may be different - that's why I said "for me", and not "generally".

I might have felt different about that if the game gave us options to coordinate the group during raids. We do have a horn, so in theory, the opportunity is there to send signals like "assemble here", "take cover", or "spread out". But the only signals that the game makes available to us, are "start raid" and "retreat completely".

Originally posted by Dorok:

Moreover Jormvikings fall is only injury healing during one River Raid, and Jormvkings are cheap. So with two teams of Jormvkings, the fallen aren't that important, they only let you less Jormvkings in next assault of the same River Raid. But at next river raid you'll have a full team again.

Yes, true. Personally I do not like to treat my crew mates as "expendables", but it's absolutely possible and viable to play river raids in this way. You only need one Jomsviking alive to loot treasure chests. And as long as you make it back home, where you can always hire a new crew while your one is recovering, it doesn't really matter in terms of gameplay how many Jomsvikings you bring back in good health.

[Dorok]

Well ok I give up, too much too read, I'm not in the mood.

So from a quick browse of your post.
- Ok stuck cases can happen sometimes but it's rare, it's possible me strategy with River Raids is involved, don't rush in beat next enemy close.
- Ok there some semi random aspects, bu it's far to be random and dumb.
- Balcony: Ok perhaps it's special cases I didn't noticed, is it along first two maps? I finished a play before be able start the last river raids map. Don't conclude I didn't played them a lot, it's just at some points I played a lot and wasn't progressing to unlock next map.
- Lack of efficiency with a stealth approach, ok, I didn't notice you had quoted it.
- Two groups of Jomsviking: It's not meaning it's expendables Jomsviking because lost them before end of raid is a penalty, no matter how you'll kill faster with more Jomsviking.

In RPG real time and combat with allies Valhalla did the best job than anything I remind including Odyssey quite bad on that in comparison, and River Raids smells the potential of a new type of gameplay. Only a few rare RPG with companions did better but it's no allies with some independency.

A group walking close to player would have been boredom anyway. And most RPG with companions have crap AI but the job is tougher because companions have also complex character building so a lot of possible variations.

[Psyringe]

Originally posted by Dorok:

Well ok I give up, too much too read, I'm not in the mood.

It's okay, I think you did get the gist of my post. ;)

Originally posted by Dorok:

- Ok stuck cases can happen sometimes but it's rare, it's possible me strategy with River Raids is involved, don't rush in beat next enemy close.

I agree that that's probably the most efficient strategy if you want to keep your Jomsvikings alive. It helps keeping the group together, and the inability of giving combat orders to your group does not feel as limiting in that scenario.

Originally posted by Dorok:

- Ok there some semi random aspects, bu it's far to be random and dumb.

Hm, probably depends on one's perspective. Realistically, I would call it rather dumb for a gravely wounded fighter to expose themselves rather than doing less dangerous tasks, such as searching for treasure. But the AI in Valhalla is not more dumb than the AI of similar games of this type, as far as I can tell. Also, we're talking about Vikings here, so a case can be made that the reckless behavior fits the theme. ;)

Originally posted by Dorok:

- Balcony: Ok perhaps it's special cases I didn't noticed, is it along first two maps? I finished a play before be able start the last river raids map. Don't conclude I didn't played them a lot,

I don't recall which map that specific scenario was on, sorry. :( In case it helps, I do recall that it was in one of the largest settlements of all the river raids, and I think there was a church on top of a hill that housed a unique boss enemy. The fountain surrounded by balconies was on one of various paths that led up that hill. The scenario itself definitely is a special case, but I think that the AI weaknesses that it exposes do also exist in other combat scenarios - they just aren't as impactful there.

I know from your past posts that you've played a lot and also specifically kept an eye on combat details.

Originally posted by Dorok:

In RPG real time and combat with allies Valhalla did the best job than anything I remind including Odyssey quite bad on that in comparison, and River Raids smells the potential of a new type of gameplay. Only a few rare RPG with companions did better but it's no allies with some independency.

I agree. :) And I think the AI in Valhalla is good enough for the experience that the game is trying to convey. I also agree that this type of gameplay may be worth exploring further, perhaps in a spinoff.

But then I would really like to see it enhanced. Here are just 3 suggested improvements from my previous post:

1. Minimal coordination between fighters would be nice, it could also enhance immersion a lot. For example, imagine two of your crewmates standing back-to-back while fending off a larger group of enemies surrounding them. That would look and feel very "real", right?

2. Wounded crew mates should focus on less dangerous tasks, such as pillaging, exploring, seeking hidden treasures.

3. The ability of using your horn to give battlefield orders like "assemble here", "take cover", "full attack", "spread out" etc. would be nice as well, and would give the player better ways to work around AI weaknesses.

I'm not saying that AC Valhalla "needs" these improvements. I found the combat in Valhalla pretty fun the way it is. But if Ubisoft explores this "squad combat" gameplay further, these are improvements that I'd like to see.

[Dorok]

I said I wasn't in the mood to read long post, looks like you hate me.

So again ultra fast browse:
- Don't rush in: Yeah a key is keep them more grouped, but only longer not along the raid. What you see as AI weakness is for me fun lite sim, I want Jormvikings have some freedom and make their own decisions including not stay in the big group, or even sometimes rush forward alone.
- Severly wonded Jormviking: That's a fun lite sim aspect, that's a heroic Jormviking. What's the game is missing is some cowards Jormsviking and some mildly cautious Jormviking but I quoted often behaviors looking like mildly cautious.
- Balcony: Mmm if it's the knight boss you need beat once to get a sword. Well I don't remind the central place was so much a troublesome for Jormsvikings. At reverse in this map to reach the knight, there's a long bridge and at its end many enemies archers wait, for this case I don't think Jormsvikings can manage in any way this case without the player. That's just one case and as far I remind Jormvikings won't cross the long bridge to reach this location if the player isn't close enough. That's just one case, I don't remind anything much special for the place with a fountains.

Improvements for some other game:
1: Agree but not systematically, Majesty is hinting a bit how it can work, traits, some would let a Jormviking be very aggressive and not hesistating rush alone even if nobody follow, some would rush help Jormviking in trouble or too isolated, some would stick follow another Jormviking not having the same trait to follow.
2: Again don't agree, it shouldn't be too systematic. But perhaps it needs some traits pushing more to that. The problem here is if no Jormvikings ever fall and that's what will happen with what you suggest, it will generate many weird cases like all Jormvikings fleeing and let player alone.
3: Well, I don't want too complex orders it would break the lite Majesty feeling and force player control a lot too much combats details, that would be a different game, interesting but different and as I don't like RTS it could be quickly a game I Can't bear.

But for sure there's the place for many improvements. Myself, I'd say:

With some relationship to AI:
- Traits, with effects on your points 1 & 2.
- For point 3, perhaps keep a regroup call but with limited effects, limited by range, limited by AI and Jormviking context, limited by some traits. Plus eventually a nasty side effect of enemies regroup too trying focus on regroup call position.
- Allow setup one Jormviking to always follow you and help you, or eventually allows define two groups player not included, group having some influence on AI.
- Have Jormvokings be able switch to long range temporary, but it would be very difficult to tune the AI so a powerful close range doesn't switch stupidly to weak long range for bad reasons.
- In case a Jormvoking is waiting help to open a chest have the AI has some triggers to stop it like a close enough combat or player too far, with eventually a player option on that.

Plus some other random aspects:
- Set healing duration on something else than river raids done.
- Set a max roster size lower than twice a group, plus adds an option for temporary extra Jormviking and paid only for one raid so lower cost, and an option too pick in raid a wounded Jormvoking with low wound.
- Change the whole ship system that myself I don't like at all. I'd prefer specific set of commands for the ship obviously with keys that could be keys used in another context as you just control the ship.
- Not have Jormviking often changing their equipment.
- Have a limited equipment setup for each Jormviking.
- Have all Jormviking leveling up.
- Have a Jormviking real death system with an interesting recruit replacement mechanic.
- Have some mercenary system stolen from Odyssey and put in it to add some random spice.

EDIT:
Gee my own post is a lot too long, sigh, I can't even re read it properly. :-P

[RoxxasTheDemonslayer]

hmmm how many levels/ranks to the jormva have?
that might explain why my guy is still 1.

[Dorok]

Originally posted by RoxxasTheDemonslayer:

hmmm how many levels/ranks to the jormva have?
that might explain why my guy is still 1.

At start you choose a Jormviking leader, this is the only Jormviking that can level up from making River Raids. Others will never level up so will have the level at which they was hired. And the level of (non player owned) Jormvikings you can hire is the level of your Hall.

The Hall max level should be 5, but in my opinion 3 is already fine, more is if you want play with less Jormvikings in River Raids.

One thing I never tried is change Jormviking leader to level up more Jormvikings, it's possible, but I don't know if with this you can alternate between Jormvikings to level up more Jormvikings from river raids, probably not but I didn't tried.

That makes me wonder if a player Jormviking (always level 1 at hire, weird design bug) can be promoted Jormviking leader, probably not but didn't tried.

[RoxxasTheDemonslayer]

so 5 is the max? that explains it, prolly need a LOT more xp then i thought for him to lvl up