Stardrive 2 announced, 1st game not even finished?

[Danso]

So, me and my friends bought Stardrive a while back with the hope that one day we could play it together. Multiplayer was promised, after all. When we bought it, it was listed on steam as Multiplayer but was later changed (temporarily of course, until it was added) Hell, there's even a space on the main menu where the button was supposed to go. Checking week after week hoping that MP would FINALLY be added, as well as other promised features and bug fixes, I was quite dissappointed to see today that they've announced Stardrive 2 to be released in September. So, the entire time we've been waiting for this alpha of a game to be finished, they've been busy working away on a completely new game instead?

Now, don't get me wrong, I can understand that the dev's may have learnt a lot whilst creating SD and possibly realised that they could make a much better SD from scratch with what they now know but, I feel cheated as a customer. To not even finish the first game and give us the features promised when purchased, and then just release a second, makes me not want to buy it. Multiplayer or not, great game or not, it's simply a terrible way to treat your playerbase and I don't want to support such BS.

I'm pretty sure I read somewhere by the Dev's on the offcial forums that MP would actually be extremely easy to add, just kind of time consuming, so they wanted to get the core game working 100% before adding it in. It should have been done months ago. There are A LOT of us who have been waiting for that MP update. Instead we get patches that corrupt the game somewhat and all attention focused on the second game. It's not just the lacking of MP that leaves this game feeling unfinished, neither. That's just the one thing we were told the game had on steam when we bought it, and never got. It's also what I was personally looking most forward to, as the AI lacks to be of any real challenge and gets boring fast, on any difficulty. Far too predictable and repetetive, same thing every game.

If the second SD is meant to be what you WANTED the original SD to be, then give it to us who have already purchased SD for free or at a discount at least, as right now, we've pre-purchased an unfinished game for full-price, to be abandoned, left with an unfinished alpha and no hope of refunds. I don't see that as fair at all. It feels as though we've paid for a game, got a half-assed, unfinished one and you've used that money to fund the making of the "real" game, to then also sell to us again. Like a kickstarter, except that the backers are only promised a broken demo and will have to pay again for the real game when it's out.

[Caridor]

161Sherlock eredeti hozzászólása:

And why there will be no multiplayer in SD2? Its turned-base, this is the same thing again but at least he isnt promising something, but he cant expect big sale of SD2, this game has bad reputation already and I doubt Total Biscuit will help again.

Yeah, it's got a bad reputation because of a bunch of [gents - Mod] who don't understand the meaning of the words "subject to change" and decided to try and use their own overwhelming [vigor - Mod] to discredit a great game.
Also, last I heard SD2 will have multiplayer.

[Luky]

Ok we will be idiots no more and will not buy any more games from Zero.

[Zoopy]

Caridor eredeti hozzászólása:

Well, let's be fair, the game wouldn't work in multiplayer.
There's way too much management that needs to be done. "Hold on guys, I need to pause for 25 minutes because I just researched titan tech"
That being said, it's probably not complete but it's not missing much.
It's a single player experiance and good one at that.

Not missing much? Huh? It feels like a beta game. The content in the game itself is incredibly lacking compared to most other 4X games. It feels like I'm playing the bare bones version of a 4X game.

The entire game feels incomplete and not just because it's lacking multiplayer either.

[Murundi]

"Also, last I heard SD2 will have multiplayer." -Caridor

I guess you should clean your ears out more often, Cwilsons just stated before you in this very thread that you shouldn't buy SD2 with hopes of Multiplayer. And I am sorry, in the patch release back last summer when Zero mentioned multiplayer comming with the content pack he was developing to be released, which was never actually released, he never once said at the end of the patch note anything about "Subject to Change." Maybe someone is suffering from overwelming "Talking out of their hat." or is being an "Ignorant Buffoon" making comments about others mental capablities when their "Facts" are whatever they believe Zero says they are.

[Wh1ppet]

Caridor eredeti hozzászólása:

161Sherlock eredeti hozzászólása:

But Zero promised multiplayer before release SD1, isn't it a false advertising?

Not really.
People who bought it before release knew that it was a beta game and litterally everything was subject to change, including features.

We did know that? Really? Because I bought into it almost the moment it went on sale as early release and like most early release games I invest in, I expect it to deliver on the promises being made, at the very least, and if it doesn't, I hold grudges against the designers for not being honest and making promises they couldn't keep.

I invest in lots of early release games. I expect them all to at least meet any promises they made.

[Crunchy]

While i feel for you and the break of expectations its just not smart to buy games on what is promised. unless you are OK with taking a loss.

Games just do not inherently work that way. Most software does not work that way but games in particular because of the want to make it fun which does not mix well with deadlines.

Deadlines require functionality and features for fun or nice UI's and other non essential stuff get stripped for that. I deal with that stuff all the time.

Experienced game makers already know how that stuff works and they surely spend a lot of money figuring out just what to say. Paid PR folks which zero does not nor did he ever have that i am aware of.

I dont like it but sometimes things happen that way.

fighting someone like zero on this kind of thing... I dunno. I think it would be better to go after your cell phone company for offering "unlimited" plans which are in fact limited.

But i get how upsetting it can be but we as a consumer should be able to make good buying choices and things like pre-release buying with non contractual or even contactual promises... Its just not a good way to buy games or anything really. Worse to get upset when those promises cant be met.

Better to look at what you have and how much you liked what you got. Thats an individual opinion like it is with any game as fun is not quantifiable. Those opions of the game fun are very valid and important as surely other feel the same way.

For me stardrive was worth every penny. 60-100+ hours of real entertainment into a <$30 game... That is just awesome. Multiplayer would be great but it doesnt need it to be a fun game. SD was a really great game experience for me and i was happy to support zero in his game making as he really has a good feel for this stuff. My only concern there as SD2 is related is how much of the good of stardrive was a community effort as all this political BS has put a huge damper of Zero's ability to communicate with us and take our input.

I do not like that. Makes me a little upset in that respect. People getting all upset about their bad buying choices and zeros inability to make good on promises he surely wanted to keep. causing a reduction in the community involvement that surely would make the game better than just zero on his own.

Its possible that zero just wanted to shaft everyone but I liked a lot of the game he made so he did not do a very good job of shafting. In addition the passion and such he showed for the game... Thats too much work for someone that surely did not need the money.

[Caridor]

Vizhonary eredeti hozzászólása:

invest promises

Two words that I have severe issues with.
First off, you don't "invest", you "purchase". You purchase a product in the state that it's in and hope the developer adds more. That is the deal with buying beta games and if you have a problem with that, then don't buy beta games. Simple as that.
Also, promises? What I hope you mean is "things that the developer hopes to be able to add", which is entirely different. Of course, if my clarification is incorrect, then evolution has clearly failed.

[Zenithiel]

Caridor eredeti hozzászólása:

Vizhonary eredeti hozzászólása:

invest promises

Two words that I have severe issues with.
First off, you don't "invest", you "purchase". You purchase a product in the state that it's in and hope the developer adds more. That is the deal with buying beta games and if you have a problem with that, then don't buy beta games. Simple as that.
Also, promises? What I hope you mean is "things that the developer hopes to be able to add", which is entirely different. Of course, if my clarification is incorrect, then evolution has clearly failed.

No, you certainly "invest". That is the whole early release and kickstarter model. You hand over your money based on the promises of the creator. especially on kickstarter, he/she does not at that moment have a finished product, but he/she is promising that he will give you one if he/she gets the required funding. This was a kickstarter game, thus many "invested" in this game. Even as a early access game, zero was promising (or at least suggesting) that the game would get better to spur early investments. Now I agree that this is not the smartest decision to invest into someone we are not 100% sure will deliver, but this business model has led to the creation of some awesome games, that wouldn't have been possible otherwise. However if you do not meet these promises, you deserve all the criticism you get from the investors.

By the way, look at the kickstarter page for stardrive it has multiplayer in BOLD, and under "Features", that does not sound like a "ill add it if I feel like it" to me, it sounds like "This will be a feature of this game, you can play with your friends".

[Crunchy]

yeah but if you consider kickstarter an investment then you also have to accept the loss when things dont work out. investments dont always work out. thats what you get into when you kickstart. Or really put any money towards something that doesnt currently have all the features I want.

its clear that zero did try to make things happen and that is all you can hope for for an investment. This is clear by the code changes to the game that are still going on.


however games get into that fuzzy area of the difference between gambling and investment. No matter if i get all the pieces to the game as they were promised under my investment i still may not like the game. I might not have any fun with it.

And the other half of that is that i may not get all the pieces that I invested or gambled for and still have fun playing the game.

stadrive falls into that latter piece. Nevertheless what i was really trying to get when i put money towards a game is fun. If i got that im ahead of the deal no matter the outcome of the individual pieces.

[Zenithiel]

That is true crunchy gremlin, I understand that, and you are correct. I do not think it should absolve zero of the criticism he is getting though. When you invest in something, you are not guaranteed a finished product, but people naturally expect promises to be met. some did not have fun with the game, and expected zero to meet his promises before moving on to a sequel. I think this is valid concern for people to have. any company or developer deserves criticism for not meeting promises, which is why many have to rely in keeping a good the relationship between them and the consumer when things go wrong. At least that is how i look at it, maybe I'm just picky and expect too much though.

[Crunchy]

No it is a valid concern. There is no question that if i get burned i need to be careful when dealing with that area.

I do not fault you at all for saying I dont trust zero to be able to make good on all his promises in the future.

But i also have to say I have some trust in zero that he is going to make a game that i am going to have fun playing.
*And* that i trust there will be some rocky spots
*and* he may ditch the game and move on to next thing that interests him.

However... As long as a lot of the fun he got into stardrive wasnt just because of the community involvement that he had in stardrive, he has a pretty damn good handle on how these 4x game should be.

I mean I would have ditched stardrive when he said he was moving on too if i wasnt code modding. In fact i did but code modding is really neat.

primarily because the game needs a lot of work to shine... *but* there is a freaking diamond in this game. Something i have not felt...

I think most of agree on this point and that is what makes it all the more heart breaking in SD. Lets see if he can do it better in the next game.

but i tell you im looking forward to SD3. Which he said he was aiming at making the next RTS of SD as SD3. That game had better kick ass. We shall see what SD2 can do. if it sucks... then SD3 hopes go down.

[Caridor]

Zenithiel eredeti hozzászólása:

No, you certainly "invest". That is the whole early release and kickstarter model. You hand over your money based on the promises of the creator. especially on kickstarter, he/she does not at that moment have a finished product, but he/she is promising that he will give you one if he/she gets the required funding. This was a kickstarter game, thus many "invested" in this game. Even as a early access game, zero was promising (or at least suggesting) that the game would get better to spur early investments. Now I agree that this is not the smartest decision to invest into someone we are not 100% sure will deliver, but this business model has led to the creation of some awesome games, that wouldn't have been possible otherwise. However if you do not meet these promises, you deserve all the criticism you get from the investors.

By the way, look at the kickstarter page for stardrive it has multiplayer in BOLD, and under "Features", that does not sound like a "ill add it if I feel like it" to me, it sounds like "This will be a feature of this game, you can play with your friends".

Well, if that's what it sounds like to you, I will use your opinion to determine exactly what things are not.
I'm sorry but you're looking at features for something that didn't exist at the time and even when funded, there was no guarantee of it ever existing! The compnay could have folded before it's release and you would have got nothing and there would be no legal recourse for you because you knew exactly what you were getting into.
Nothing, not even the game coming out is a "promise" with kickstarter or early access or any similar system. Time you learnt to face facts.

And no, with early access, you do not invest, unless your definition of "investing" is "buying something which I know is not complete in the hopes that it will ever be updated, despite knowing that the developer has no legal requirement to ever update or work on the game again" and if that is your definition of investment, then for the love of god, never invest in a business because you clearly don't even have the foggiest idea of what's going on.

[Zenithiel]

Caridor eredeti hozzászólása:

Well, if that's what it sounds like to you, I will use your opinion to determine exactly what things are not.
I'm sorry but you're looking at features for something that didn't exist at the time and even when funded, there was no guarantee of it ever existing! The compnay could have folded before it's release and you would have got nothing and there would be no legal recourse for you because you knew exactly what you were getting into.
Nothing, not even the game coming out is a "promise" with kickstarter or early access or any similar system. Time you learnt to face facts.

And no, with early access, you do not invest, unless your definition of "investing" is "buying something which I know is not complete in the hopes that it will ever be updated, despite knowing that the developer has no legal requirement to ever update or work on the game again" and if that is your definition of investment, then for the love of god, never invest in a business because you clearly don't even have the foggiest idea of what's going on.

Maybe I’m misunderstanding you, or you me. Like I’ve said I know that there is no guarantee that you will get the finished product you have invested in. Maybe your definition of the word “investing” different than the usual definition. Yes I am looking at features for the kickstarter, and while there was no guarantee, people were relying on his word that his description he offered would be the finished product. Yes, the company could have folded, that has nothing to do with my argument because I’m not talking about guarantees, even though that is unlikely because the game was on kickstarter. He establishes a goal of money that would be required to attempt make that product a reality, and he received more than twice of that. Maybe your definition of promise is different as well, or maybe I’m just weird. The way I see it, his features list was a promise to those that invested in him, I do not really understand how it couldn’t be considered a promise. And if not what is it?

Same argument with early access, cause he put features there as well. I do not see how my definition of investment is that wrong, its why they use the term in stocks. You do not invest in what a stock is worth at that moment, you expect it to grow, and to get a return from it. Its not guaranteed, but it is expected. I know that this developer is not a stock, but just like any company, they deserve criticism for not meeting expectations. And at least in my case, I am not talking about this in a legal sense, but a moral sense. though i imagine the kickstarters people could attempt to sue him for not providing the features he had on the title page of his kickstarter, but I am not a lawyer so i wouldn't know how successful that would be, nor would i really want to sue him.

I understand my view is somewhat negative on stardrive and stardrive 2, and I don't want it to be. I want both games to be great, but I also just want to kind of vocalize what I think some people are feeling when they see this sequel being made. I think with more collaboration and communication between the community and the devs, Star Drive 2 could be awesome. we will just have to wait and see though.

as a side note: Crunchy Gremlin (funny name by the way) i understand and agree with your points now, I hope SD2 meets expectations for everyone's sake. how much does modding change the game? When I was playing I did not really find any, but maybe i should give it another shot with mods now that modders have had time to mess with it.

[Crunchy]

I am actually a monty python fan and crunchy gremlin is twist on crunchy frog candy.
well you should play my mod of course ;)
No but seriously devek put together the ability to change the game code. not all of it but a bunch of areas can be changed.
if you want to try playing the game again you should try it with my mod.

im not changing XML and adding textures, although i would like to try making Star Fleet Battles SD, im replacing chunks of code. Actually changing how the game works.

i can fix bugs and add features. Anyone can with a little effort.
its about the coolest damn thing i have EVER experienced in a game.

[Zenithiel]

Crunchy Gremlin eredeti hozzászólása:

I am actually a monty python fan and crunchy gremlin is twist on crunchy frog candy.
well you should play my mod of course ;)
No but seriously devek put together the ability to change the game code. not all of it but a bunch of areas can be changed.
if you want to try playing the game again you should try it with my mod.

im not changing XML and adding textures, although i would like to try making Star Fleet Battles SD, im replacing chunks of code. Actually changing how the game works.

i can fix bugs and add features. Anyone can with a little effort.
its about the coolest damn thing i have EVER experienced in a game.

I'll have to give it a try sometime, modding can really make games worth way more than you paid for them. Games like skyrim and minecraft would not be the same without them. I've always wanted to mod a game, but I am usually too lazy to figure how all this "coding" magic works, lol. I also really respect those who put in the effort to make a game better too, so thanks!

I did really like the fleet combat in this game. Is there any way just to play around by just making two or more opposing fleets and smashing them together in a battle to the death? kind of like a sandbox mode, that you control enemies too?