Warhammer 40k ship sizes comparisons.

[Marauder]

https://i.imgur.com/zxMELew.jpg

Just a quick example of some ship sizes and why people who know the setting think we should be able to upgrade, or at least be able to build a fleet similar to how we build a party with manually controlled ships.

Yes in theory our ship is "huge", in the setting however it's comparatively tiny. There aren't even Battleships in this list and Battleships aren't the end all. And yes, Rogue Traders have been known to have cruisers, some in the game do, hell some in lore had Grand Cruisers and entire fleets to support them.

[The Seraph of Tomorrow]

G Willikers lähetti viestin:

It sounds like our ship is the original dynasty flagship based on some of the code pasqal finds and how the writ vault behaves. You can’t just rip all that out and install it in a new ship.

It can also hold its own against much larger ships which also makes lore sense if it’s a pre-heresy ship or even dark age of tech. At this point it’s like a hot rod Prius, the only thing it has in common with a stock frigate is looks.

In terms of utility it makes sense to gameplay to use a smaller ship that can operate stealthily but punch well above its weight when needed. We’re remapping and stabilizing an entire sector, we need to be able to operate deep in unknown space for long periods of time completely independently.

Cruisers and grand cruisers don’t “have” fleets, they require them for everything from supply to point defense. A lone cruiser is easy pickings for a strong enough flotilla while a lone frigate has the option to maneuver or go quiet and escape.

I would definitely like more options and customization on the ship portion of the game but I also think using a frigate makes sense for a lot of reasons.

Play the table top and you'll find nothing you said is true.

1. Upgrading to a better vessel and improving all aspects of your main ship is a major part of the game. In fact, this is often done by stealing / boarding an enemy ship instead of buying one since it takes decades to build ships even though it can be done in the TTRPG.

2. In the table top only Raider Class vessels can really punch above their weight due to their high maneuverability. Everything else more or less gets torn apart by higher class vessels with vastly more guns, void shields, and armor. Light Cruiser Classes can also punch above their weight is built properly, but in general they are not much different than Cruisers which are End-Tier in the game.

3. In 40k stealthy isn't a term you can apply to human ship, as unless you are in a gas clause / nebula you're going to get picked up on auspex unless you are running your engines on minimal output which all ships can do. The only stealthy ships in 40k are the eldar and dark eldar vessels.

4. The only ships that can operate in unknown regions for long periods of time are light-cruisers and above due to the ability to kit them out with multiple large holding bays for supplies. Technically you can do the same with Transport Class vessels, but that's suicidal due to the lack or arms they can carry even if you can turn them into mobile world conquering army transports. For example, you can take the Universal Mass Conveyor, and kit it out so you can conquer worlds with the number of troops it can carry.

[The Seraph of Tomorrow]

Myth Alric lähetti viestin:

The Dynasty sure doesn't seem to be doing so well when you take it over. Also are they as wealthy as Winterscale, or do they just punch above their class because they are a well respect OG dynasty?

Also even if a transport ship is larger, they are not designed for heavy combat. I think most people would rather have a frigate than having a ship 5 times larger which is designed to ship a billion potatoes at a time, even if it did have some weapons on it.

The only thing transport vessels are good for is exactly that, transporting supplies or troops. Though you can also kit them out with a fair bit of utility decks that are nice to have. though for utility and combat, a light cruiser is more or less the better way to go.

[watcherzero]

The only thing that was rare to non existent doctrinal back in 30k were Battle Cruisers, the Crusade fleet used the larger but slower Grand Cruisers but over the intervening millennia the Imperial Navy has switched to predominantly using Battle Cruisers as they are more mobile meanwhile the Chaos navy which is still primarily made up of the original traitor ships have a lot of surviving Grand Cruisers but none of the more modern Battle Cruisers.

[Kadaeux]

Tech-Priest lähetti viestin:

G Willikers lähetti viestin:

It sounds like our ship is the original dynasty flagship based on some of the code pasqal finds and how the writ vault behaves. You can’t just rip all that out and install it in a new ship.

It can also hold its own against much larger ships which also makes lore sense if it’s a pre-heresy ship or even dark age of tech. At this point it’s like a hot rod Prius, the only thing it has in common with a stock frigate is looks.

In terms of utility it makes sense to gameplay to use a smaller ship that can operate stealthily but punch well above its weight when needed. We’re remapping and stabilizing an entire sector, we need to be able to operate deep in unknown space for long periods of time completely independently.

Cruisers and grand cruisers don’t “have” fleets, they require them for everything from supply to point defense. A lone cruiser is easy pickings for a strong enough flotilla while a lone frigate has the option to maneuver or go quiet and escape.

I would definitely like more options and customization on the ship portion of the game but I also think using a frigate makes sense for a lot of reasons.

Play the table top and you'll find nothing you said is true.

1. Upgrading to a better vessel and improving all aspects of your main ship is a major part of the game. In fact, this is often done by stealing / boarding an enemy ship instead of buying one since it takes decades to build ships even though it can be done in the TTRPG.

2. In the table top only Raider Class vessels can really punch above their weight due to their high maneuverability. Everything else more or less gets torn apart by higher class vessels with vastly more guns, void shields, and armor. Light Cruiser Classes can also punch above their weight is built properly, but in general they are not much different than Cruisers which are End-Tier in the game.

3. In 40k stealthy isn't a term you can apply to human ship, as unless you are in a gas clause / nebula you're going to get picked up on auspex unless you are running your engines on minimal output which all ships can do. The only stealthy ships in 40k are the eldar and dark eldar vessels.

4. The only ships that can operate in unknown regions for long periods of time are light-cruisers and above due to the ability to kit them out with multiple large holding bays for supplies. Technically you can do the same with Transport Class vessels, but that's suicidal due to the lack or arms they can carry even if you can turn them into mobile world conquering army transports. For example, you can take the Universal Mass Conveyor, and kit it out so you can conquer worlds with the number of troops it can carry.

You're actually wrong on point 3. You can *absolutely* set up a ship to be an absolute stealth beast, from the Empyrean Mantle to Hydraphuran Jamming systems, there is a fair number of components that can make your ship REALLY stealthy. Effectively cloaking devices.

***However*** to max our a ships stealthiness you ARE having to sacrifice some things, and that's not counting finding a GW generous enough to let you get a WHOOOLE lot of really rare, and borderline heretical, tech installed.

[G Willikers]

The tabletop also isn’t designed by military historians or strategists. There’s a reason the British navy at its height only had about 7 ships of the line and they spent most of the year in dock. In the vastness of space a smaller ship would be much better at surviving for long periods of time in hostile space.

Mass effect got a lot wrong but they got the Normandy’s utility as a small recon and insertion vessel spot on. Being a small target in space vastly outweighs more fire power and the more crew you have, the more crew you have to feed which limits range.

You can disagree and point to the tabletop but look through the history of naval warfare. It was always the small to mid-sized ships that had the greatest utility until the development of the aircraft carrier and even then only because of the extended projection range they have. This game doesn’t have carriers so that isn’t really valid here (not to mention carriers require massive support to operate for extended periods).

The Bismarck, one of the largest warships of its era, was crippled by a torpedo from a single bomber and harassed to death.

A frigate is an ideal vessel for a rogue trader. The only actual advantage a cruiser has is it looks more impressive and has a larger broadside, pretty much any other use case the frigate is going to be an equal or superior option.

It’s also entirely within Theodora’s character to use a vessel most will underestimate that can hammer hard, deliver a strike team, and get out.

Personally I hope Owlcat builds on the space combat portion of the game and lets us build a fleet or fleets to defend our systems, but while it’s just one ship the one they picked makes sense in terms of lore and realism.

[Marauder]

Comparing space ships with naval ships is, a terrible comparison in virtually every way. They function entirely different, operate under different circumstances. All to support your own opinion.

[Helldiver]

A Rogue Trader cruiser:
https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/File:RTCruiser.jpg

Ugly a.f. which is why I prefered to use SM Strike Cruisers as a conversion base.

Back in the day Forge World released a Rogue Trader fleet that also had their smaller frigate sized vessels. Surprised FFG or Owlcat didn't use those models for inspiration rather than the standard Imperial Navy frigates.

Wasn't able to find the original forge world images.
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-tkrlo0IAXgo/UP7MtPsVAPI/AAAAAAAAB9Q/GU7iC-h8vvg/s1600/rogue+trader+battlefleet+gothic+2.jpg

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-HGdAW0XYAOw/V6X__LiJKVI/AAAAAAAADWQ/kzG8lRwljqgNpUDveaQosaGbbCn92c55gCLcB/s1600/rogue%2Btrader%2Bbattlefleet%2Bgothic%2B4.jpg

Would have been so cool to have had a choice of those ships as our flagship. Maybe we start with one of the escorts and can purchase bigger ones up to a the cruiser.

[Kadaeux]

G Willikers lähetti viestin:

The tabletop also isn’t designed by military historians or strategists. There’s a reason the British navy at its height only had about 7 ships of the line and they spent most of the year in dock. In the vastness of space a smaller ship would be much better at surviving for long periods of time in hostile space.

See, this is objectively wrong. A smaller ship would not be much better at surviving for long periods of time in hostile space. Less armoured, less shielded, less armed, don't have enough speed to notably evade, less space for supply vaults, less room for other modules

Mass effect got a lot wrong but they got the Normandy’s utility as a small recon and insertion vessel spot on. Being a small target in space vastly outweighs more fire power and the more crew you have, the more crew you have to feed which limits range.

Being a small target in space objectively does not outweigh more firepower when you have relativistic and light speed weapons. Being small doesn't make you harder to hit.

You can disagree and point to the tabletop but look through the history of naval warfare. It was always the small to mid-sized ships that had the greatest utility until the development of the aircraft carrier and even then only because of the extended projection range they have. This game doesn’t have carriers so that isn’t really valid here (not to mention carriers require massive support to operate for extended periods).

Pay attention to the extended projection range. THAT is why larger ships in 40k are able to operate for extended periods of time over smaller. Smaller ships cannot fit the equipment that extends their ability to operate without returning to dock.

The Bismarck, one of the largest warships of its era, was crippled by a torpedo from a single bomber and harassed to death.

The Bismark didn't have energy shields that send projectiles to hell and the speed to pursue said bomber.

A frigate is an ideal vessel for a rogue trader. The only actual advantage a cruiser has is it looks more impressive and has a larger broadside, pretty much any other use case the frigate is going to be an equal or superior option.

A Frigate is an ABYSMAL choice for a Rogue Trader. Once you have equipped it with its drives, life support, quarters, weapons and shields, you have almost no room for cargo capacity let alone other supplementary components. A Frigate is a good ship only for a Rogue Trader embarking on military endeavours.

It’s also entirely within Theodora’s character to use a vessel most will underestimate that can hammer hard, deliver a strike team, and get out.

Personally I hope Owlcat builds on the space combat portion of the game and lets us build a fleet or fleets to defend our systems, but while it’s just one ship the one they picked makes sense in terms of lore and realism.

It doesn't make sense in terms of lore OR realism. It is not the equivalent of picking a modern frigate and Destroyer. It cannot actually go toe to toe with actual Cruisers, even light cruisers, in lore. It's the equivalent of picking a PT boat.

[Flavalicious]

Kadaeux lähetti viestin:

Myth Alric lähetti viestin:

You are literally the last surviving person in the entire universe with an ounce of blood from the original person, which they finally found after scouring all the world databases to find you. Do you really think that sounds like an epic rogue trader dynasty to you?

The other rogue family has their son as heir, your prior heir had their 415th cousin as their heir. At the start of the story you have never met either of your relatives, nor likely ever even heard of them before.

It makes absolute sense you have a 'small ship' because your family is dead ass broke in Rogue Trader terms.

Except the dynasty isn't dead ass broke. The Dynasty is considered Winterscales *equal*.

Myth Alric lähetti viestin:

Rogue Traders often have even smaller ships than the one in game, including freighters and transport ships. You complain that we didn't get a battleship, but at least we got a military ship and not a modified transporter.

The Freighters and Transports are all larger than the Frigate we start with, including the Falchion. There are VERY few ships smaller than a Sword class Frigate.

There are thousands of ships smaller then a sword class frigate. They just don't get featured much in the setting because they aren't as interesting as a comically large floating moon scaled war ship with 100 000 crew. lol

We are driving a pickup truck in a world where most people walk or ride a bike lol.

[Kadaeux]

Flavalicious lähetti viestin:

There are thousands of ships smaller then a sword class frigate. They just don't get featured much in the setting because they aren't as interesting as a comically large floating moon scaled war ship with 100 000 crew. lol

We are driving a pickup truck in a world where most people walk or ride a bike lol.

No. There literally are not. We are not driving a pickup truck. We're driving a Tuk-tuk with a cannon on the back. There is no "most people" most people never leave their worlds of birth. The standard transport ships are between 2 and 12 kilometres long.

Not to mention the sheer absurdity of making up the existence of 'thousands of ships' smaller than the Sword based on literally nothing. Because we have a list of Imperial ship classes, and the Sword.

*drumroll* is among the smallest. There is ZERO civilian cast floating and flitting from world to world. The Rogue Traders ARE the closest thing to that civilian cast.

[Sparhawk122]

That Firestorm is the 4th smallest?

Lol

[Kadaeux]

Sparhawk122 lähetti viestin:

That Firestorm is the 4th smallest?

Lol

Aye, it makes sense, a Firestorm is just a Sword whose weapon batteries were stripped out to plug in a lance :P

[Megapewpew]

I'm assuming the first DLC will be more about this? I'm guessing they couldnt fit it in the game quick enough or with-in the budget. I also found it a lil strange we were stuck with a frigate, but eh, watcha gana do.

[PoohPus]

Marauder lähetti viestin:

https://i.imgur.com/zxMELew.jpg

Just a quick example of some ship sizes and why people who know the setting think we should be able to upgrade, or at least be able to build a fleet similar to how we build a party with manually controlled ships.

Yes in theory our ship is "huge", in the setting however it's comparatively tiny. There aren't even Battleships in this list and Battleships aren't the end all. And yes, Rogue Traders have been known to have cruisers, some in the game do, hell some in lore had Grand Cruisers and entire fleets to support them.

Dev-resources are better spent elsewhere.

[MarkFranz]

PoohPus lähetti viestin:

Marauder lähetti viestin:

https://i.imgur.com/zxMELew.jpg

Just a quick example of some ship sizes and why people who know the setting think we should be able to upgrade, or at least be able to build a fleet similar to how we build a party with manually controlled ships.

Yes in theory our ship is "huge", in the setting however it's comparatively tiny. There aren't even Battleships in this list and Battleships aren't the end all. And yes, Rogue Traders have been known to have cruisers, some in the game do, hell some in lore had Grand Cruisers and entire fleets to support them.

Dev-resources are better spent elsewhere.

From where the hell it come from? Dev on discord admited that they were choosing between frigate and light cruisers, and, for some reason, decide to make player ship frigate. There no practical difference in sense of resource cost between those two. Your post is completely irrelevant and uncalled for.