Where is overwatch?

[Z405]

The tabletop game Rogue Trader features a rule similar to overwatch. In the game, the overwatch mechanic allows units to fire upon enemy models that enter their line of sight and fall within a certain range during the opponent's turn. This defensive action provides units with a chance to react to enemy movements and potentially inflict damage before the enemy completes their actions.

Why isn't this mechanic included in the game? Isn't overwatch a fundamental aspect of every turn-based tactical strategy? While some may argue that it's not missed because the game already has a lot going on, or that there are more pressing issues, such as fixing numerous bugs or balancing overpowered builds, I still find myself wishing for an overwatch option. Surely, there are more players like me who would love to see this implemented.

That being said, considering the undercooked state of the game and the necessity of at least 6-12 months before this beta posturing as an official release can truly be considered as such, I find it highly unlikely that it will ever be implemented.

[nno785.45]

Origineel geplaatst door corisai:

Origineel geplaatst door windy.coyote:

and aiming for a target 3 meters away))))

Blame Owlcats for that idiocy. Melta is not THAT shortranged as it's in game.

Because it IS a game. We are speaking about a purely imaginary set of rules (physical, if you wish). They could have tried to include overwatch and chnage their rules for cover system entirely (possibly less enemies might have been required, i agree with that). It might have worked. The present system is flawed.

[Z405]

Origineel geplaatst door windy.coyote:

Origineel geplaatst door corisai:

In the game. Most distances in combat are around 3 rounds of default movement. That's a very short range.

You literally said that game SIMULATES close range fights pretty well. How many gunfights have you participated personally and how many of them included meltas and axe wielding tech priests? )))

I lol'd. Thanks for that.

[Z405]

Origineel geplaatst door tempest.of.emptiness:

If there were no bugs in the game, then I would say that not adding overwatch was a mistake.

Since the game is full of bugs, I think not adding more features was the right decision. If the game ever gets into a good state then I would encourage the developers to consider adding overwatch since as a concept it is so core to games with this sort of combat.

Trying to add it before the game is working does not seem like a good idea to me.

I agree, right now it would be a unwanted disaster.

[nno785.45]

Origineel geplaatst door Z405:

Origineel geplaatst door windy.coyote:

You literally said that game SIMULATES close range fights pretty well. How many gunfights have you participated personally and how many of them included meltas and axe wielding tech priests? )))

I lol'd. Thanks for that.

you are welcome

[Z405]

Origineel geplaatst door mykidsnamedme:

Origineel geplaatst door Z405:

The tabletop game Rogue Trader features a rule similar to overwatch. In the game, the overwatch mechanic allows units to fire upon enemy models that enter their line of sight and fall within a certain range during the opponent's turn. This defensive action provides units with a chance to react to enemy movements and potentially inflict damage before the enemy completes their actions.

Why isn't this mechanic included in the game? Isn't overwatch a fundamental aspect of every turn-based tactical strategy? While some may argue that it's not missed because the game already has a lot going on, or that there are more pressing issues, such as fixing numerous bugs or balancing overpowered builds, I still find myself wishing for an overwatch option. Surely, there are more players like me who would love to see this implemented.

That being said, considering the undercooked state of the game and the necessity of at least 6-12 months before this beta posturing as an official release can truly be considered as such, I find it highly unlikely that it will ever be implemented.

I thought this at first but the more I play the more it would be terrible for the game.

Think about a mission where there are many small 25 hp npc enemies that all OW when you move.....ugh lol.

Yeah some things should be left out.

A well-thrown grenade, melee, or ranged hit can disrupt an NPC's overwatch. The current issue lies in the game's balance, making the implementation of overwatch a potential nightmare. Additionally, smaller NPCs with 25 HP typically don't inflict much damage, even on Unfair difficulty.

It's crucial to note the game's extensive variety of ranged weaponry, including pistols, shotguns, rifles, snipers, and more. This diversity also extends to the range itself, creating a dynamic environment. Furthermore, a penalty to hit chance might be introduced, especially considering that moving targets are inherently more challenging to hit.

These elements collectively contribute to adding another tactical layer to the gameplay.

[Ferrsai]

Origineel geplaatst door Z405:

Origineel geplaatst door Tyrendian89:

wouldn't fit at all. This game is utterly about the alpha strike... I haven't seen Yrliet's unique ability go off even once because stuff just dies - wasting AP to maybe get one shot you can't control during the opponent's turn or maybe not even that? No thanks...

The game centers on a "steamroll or be steamrolled" dynamic, largely due to its imbalanced features. Hopefully, these issues will be addressed in the coming year. Despite this, the Unfair difficulty setting offers numerous rounds of gameplay per combat encounter, highlighting the potential for strategic overwatch to succeed.

The enjoyable aspect of choice in deciding your actions adds a unique layer to the game. If you haven't experienced games like X-Com, Gears Tactics, Chaos Gate: Daemonhunters, or any other title with overwatch mechanics, you might not fully appreciate the added strategic significance it brings.

Well, I just wanted to say that it's been over a year and none of that has been addressed. Much as I assumed, the game was what it was and it'll be that. I don't know if they lack the resources or what the issue is. I can't see how anyone playing it would think that it's in a good state. It's not in a terrible state either, but definitely middling. Maybe mediocre is Owlcat's comfort zone and they are scared to leave it by making a truly mechanically great game.

I think it's more frustrating because they have all the pieces here to make a mechanically rich and really mechanically "great" game.

They could trim some of the talents/skills a bit (certain things like expose weakness and analyze need to be just baked directly into the class and have a clear upgrade path, and if it forks the UI should display stuff like that in a tree, not a list). In fact, a skill tree would probably simplify a lot in this game, the lists are terrible because it's hard to compare things and you can't even see half the stuff you want to compare it against without leaving the level up screen completely. That one is really asinine.

They could scale back some of the overpowered stuff to make the opportunity cost for other combinations more tempting.

They could add overwatch and either adjust movement (increase base movement) or retool some maps to provide better access to cover. There's a real problem with movement in the game. Most often you have too little to get to the next decent spot, or there is no next decent spot within reason. So, you don't want to move, but you can't act this turn, and you don't always have anything valuable you can do. That's when you'd buff or overwatch, but since most buffs are annoyingly only one turn or round you can't prebuff for the next. There are some serious flow issues between overpowered builds, underpowered builds, movement, map design and the lack of overwatch or hunker down features.

It's not that major to include some of this stuff. The most complicated things are the map retooling and cleaning up the skills either through elimination, combination and/or presentation. I'd skip the map retooling. I'd definitely add overwatch and hunker down. I'd boost base movement by 1 or 2 tiles, or tie that to an attribute. I'd rebalance some of the extremely gimmicky strategies that result in ending fights in one turn of combat. The firearms mastery skill in particular gets pretty dumb, it's also buggy as hell and has weird restrictions and interactions depending on what you have equipped, who uses it and when.

Unfortunately, none of this will ever be done. It's been too long. If they had any plans to improve the game and make it great, they'd be well underway and we'd have heard about it by now.

[armbarchris]

It's an RPG first, strategy game second. It's not XCOM. I've never seen an RPG with overwatch as a standard ability.

[Balekai]

Origineel geplaatst door armbarchris:

It's an RPG first, strategy game second. It's not XCOM. I've never seen an RPG with overwatch as a standard ability.

I think Wastelands 2 and 3 had it, but that's off the top of my head.

[Ferrsai]

Origineel geplaatst door armbarchris:

It's an RPG first, strategy game second. It's not XCOM. I've never seen an RPG with overwatch as a standard ability.

It doesn't need to be standard, but it should be part of at least once classes base kit and an optional pick for another one or two. Or maybe make it an origin thing. Most of the origin talents are either bad or overly niche. Adding some things like overwatch would add another opportunity cost avenue possibly worth pursuing.

I could see it being part of Imperial or Forge World characters. Soldier makes sense. It would be useful and fit the theme for the Officer—give some orders, then overwatch to cover their back/assist. It makes sense for Operator as well, but I think it's Assassin that has the closest thing to overwatch in the game—I forgot what its called, but you end your turn and then automatically shoot the target with a shot that can't miss at the beginning of your next turn.

Overwatch can be as strong or weaker than that depending how they'd interpret it. I've seen some where any action triggers overwatch and some that require movement to trigger it. It's like a ranged version of attacks of opportunity, except you have to spend action points to set it up instead of it being automatic. It's pretty flexible to balance. You can set it up for an area or go with targeting a specific target. You can then decide if it's going to be any action taken to trigger it or just an action or movement.

I played modded XCOM with RPGO. Tactics and RPG can go together very well. If they wanted to go pure RPG then they probably shouldn't even have a cover system or entertain the any tactical aspects that aren't already present for standard turn based RPGs, half-assing it is way worse than not having it at all.

The fact is, Owlcat tries to create these complex systems, but they lack the attention to detail, thoroughness and quality that are necessary to keep track of that complexity. What this creates is a convoluted system instead of a complex one. The amount of "bugs" in this game is absurd. I get a few slipping by, but there are major bugs all over the place because a few people didn't double check their own work and quality control either doesn't exist or didn't catch it either. Maybe they did double check it, but were too tired from overwork and too daft to ask for assistance before committing. Maybe they aren't overworked at all and half the team and definitely the management are just inept.

[armchairanarchist]

So many armchair gamedevs, yet so few armchair games. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Balekai]

Origineel geplaatst door armchairanarchist:

So many armchair gamedevs, yet so few armchair games. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

We Armchair Generals take no smack from Archchair Anarchists!! Definitely not in this armchair WAR ROOM!!

Oh you said Armchair Gamedevs... well... I guess that's ok criticism say no more say no more.

[The Seraph of Tomorrow]

Origineel geplaatst door Z405:

The tabletop game Rogue Trader features a rule...

If only the devs actually read any of the rule books instead of creating this bastardization of the RT system mixed with King Maker.

[The Seraph of Tomorrow]

Origineel geplaatst door Ferrsai:

Origineel geplaatst door armbarchris:

It's an RPG first, strategy game second. It's not XCOM.

The fact is, Owlcat tries to create these complex systems, but they lack the attention to detail, thoroughness and quality that are necessary to keep track of that complexity. What this creates is a convoluted system instead of a complex one.

Ironically the actually TTRPG Rogue Trader system is far closer to Xcom in terms of gameplay than this king maker spin off wearing a RT skin suit that they made.

[corisai]

Origineel geplaatst door The Seraph of Tomorrow:

If only the devs actually read any of the rule books

They actually did - combat is all about automatic fire at close range :) TBH table-top spray&pray even more deadly then CRPG implementation.