Assassin or Arch-Militant for Kibellah?

[Axetwin]

I cannot for the life of me pick between these two archetypes for Kibellah. Assassin is probably the obvious answer but I feel like she would be able to get stacks of Versatility quite easily (easier than Argenta) because the Bladedancer archetype wants you to alternate back and forth between different attacks. So I turn to you for advice. Who has played her as Assassin and who has played her as Arch-Militant? If you've done both, which do you prefer?

Edit I've gone with Arch-Militant Executioner for now, but feel free to continue to explain why you agree or disagree because I may change my mind later.

[Balekai]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Axetwin:

I went Arch-Militant because as Taifun_Vash pointed out, I can always respec if I feel like it's not working out.

I can tell you right now Death From Above is considered an AOE melee attack and Blade Dance is considered a single target attack. In my experimentation in one round I used Death From Above, normal single target attack, 2nd Death From Above, 2nd single target melee attack and a Blade Dance, and I ended up with 4 stacks of versatility not 5. And I was paying attention to when I got them and when I didn't, and I didn't get it when I used Blade Dance. However that Blade Dance was used on a single target so maybe it's context sensitive, if used on 1 enemy it's considered a single target attack but if you hit multiple enemies then it's treated as an AOE or even an AOE burst attack. I will continue to experiement and if people are interested I can keep this thread updated with how the build is progressing.

Hmm maybe. Definitely interesting because I believe it counts as a burst melee attack for "Where it Hurts" from Executioner when I was testing. Where each hit from Blade Dance applies 2 immediate instances of existing DoTs damage to the target(s) as opposed to 3 instances for a single attack. I will take another look at it.

For the topic here I thought I would post my ramblings about Bladedancer in relation to a build I posted here: https://steamcommunity.com/app/2186680/discussions/0/4840896974229182869/ and why I think it's the best compared to Arch Militant after a lot testing. Mostly due to some crazy things you can do with Carnival of Misery as well:

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Balekai:

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Gengisgame:

I was thinking of building this into Blade Dancer/Arch Militant/Sanctic/Pyro, the orchestrated flame ability is not a dot but it still applies a damage boost to all melee attacks.

Blade Dancer has synergy with Sanctic healing, use oath to get an extra attack for wounds, heal, boost toughness, which then has further synergy with archmilitant, multiple attacks super scaling weapon skill which can bolster a number of abilities.

Heinrix can go full Biomancer and use these abilities on the Rogue Trader and others.

Just not sure how vital fellowship is.

Hmm honestly I think for Blade Dancer in general Execution is the best way to go I could be wrong. After the last few days and this morning of testing, it seems best to scale up damage with Blade Dancer (and in the case of topic Sword of Faith damage) with Reckless Abandon etc. It's best at least in relation to upping DPS while also fixing the range/mobility of the class.

Executioner in a way scales damage in a similar means to Abelard Tank, which can end up doing a ot of damage due to damage based off his maximum or Temp Wounds (I think its temp in his case for the most part).

Basically you scale up Max Wounds and self healing (including over time) with Blade Dancer (Blessed Scars giving extra healing and stacking toughness), Executioner (Invigorating Screams, Reprieve, Anatomy Expert etc.) Biomancy (Invigorate, Confer Immunity so you can overheal into temp hp, thus always qualifying for Reckless damage 99% of the time), and Sanctic (Light of the Emperor). Lots of wounds, lots of self healing and overhealing into Temp Wounds.

Then protect those temp wounds with Deflection/Armour from Shield of the Emperor + Gift of Torment ability. With Carnival of Misery + Gift of Agony you can easily get +1 deflection for each enemy in the encounter per turn from toxin. With that Paradox Solved special talent immediately (More on Carnival later and why its important in other ways).

If all done correctly, your Reckless Abandon alone should add +60-70 Temp Wound at least and +60-70% damage for attacks and DoTs (both these numbers scale with maximum wounds of the character).

Then you take talents that increases DoT damage by huge amounts, allowing them to crit too (Note: With the pyro DoT crit talent, the Executioner DoT crit talent actually gives a special extra bonus crit chance). The DoT talents can make them do 100s of damage. Actually thousands in testing when all added together, when buffed with Carnival of Misery Heroic Act(s) from Executioner.

Carnival of Misery adds 100% more damage to DoTs after all other modifiers until the end of combat. A huge deal.
Essentially a 2x modifier of your total damage. Or x3, x4 damage multiplier depending on how many Executioners are in group and use Carnival as well lol. This would also probably be after DoT crits calculation (checked, it is and Carnival actually shows as a flat ending multiplier of x2 for damage).

As important are Upgrades III and Upgrade I. The third upgrade adds permanent bleeding, burning and toxin to enemies ENCOUNTER WIDE INSTANTLY (unless removed i guess :p :P), with a power level = character level/10 (Note: As a side note, this seems to be the best means to gain mass burning for qualifying for the +30% DoT damage from All Encompassing Agony. Easiest and least opportunity costing anyways).

Upgrade 1 makes your Toxin and Burn damage like Bleed direct damage, by making them ignore Deflection/Armour. Bleed gets +30% more damage too.

So now your mostly melee, limited movement Blade Dancer is doing heavy duty DoTs map wide.

Then finally every turn all you need to do is use:

Pain Resonance - A 4 cell radius centred on you nuke, is not an attack, and causes enemies to instantly suffer a tick of all their DoTs instantly. In addition on a resist fail Bleeding causes Blind (-30% to dodge and parry), Burning causes Slowed (-3 Movement, honestly burning is the lease needed dot), and Toxin causes Staggered (-20 WS, BS, STR, TGH, AGI).

I would use Where it hurts too, BUT it strips enemies of their DoTs after hit or hits (boo!), You can still take it though as an emergency or boss killing spike ability. I think I might myself. It also synergizes very will with Staff AoE attacks or in our case, Sword of Faith Cone and Line attacks too.

Where it Hurts - Next attack applies 3 instances of all DoTs on target (including ones applies by the attack), or 2 instances for Burst (Blade Dance) or area attacks (Line cone. For Blade Dancer this is usually limited to your melee attacks, but with a Psyker Sanctic Sword of Faith, we have

Getting Carnival of Misery up as soon as possible is probably your biggest priority. The DoTs alone killing trash could easily get you more Momentum to cast Sword of Faith. Again if you have Paradox Solved, you can just use Carnival of Misery right away and leave momentum for Sword of Faith.

Edit: While posting a screen of another Sanctic build I used, I noticed that Emperor's Wrath from Sanctic Staffs do Warp damage. So they should work with the Daemon Tool amulet possibly for Sanctic X/Executioner builds like the one above. The Daemon tool is from the puzzle safe in the Act 1 mirror area under the Rycad Minoris Causeway.

[Axetwin]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από la_nague:

the executioner converts dots into immediate direct damage. And with the special 1st lvl ability of it, you can do that x3 once per round. This gives kib the single target damage to keep the blade dancer machine going.

I guess had I actually looked at the skills properly I would've known this. Oh well. Thanks though.

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Desktop:

There is no wrong choice here, she is a very strong character.
I went assassin because it seemed to have a few decent mobility options that helped you save your death from above for dealing damage. Danse macabre has so much utility, you can cast it for free, combine that with blood oath and you can go basically anywhere. arch militant is a great class but you can never have enough AP or mp. I wouldnt go AM unless i had some kind of ranged option for her. Its difficult to get decent damage out of an offhand gun on a melee character. Maybe i just have not found the right gun for her but id rather keep her 100% melee. Oh yeah, blood oath and killing edge go together very well. they get 40% extra dodge but your next attack after blood oath cannot be dodged. Assasins get alot of lethality from agility so i find it all fits together very well.

Yeah I noticed AM has several talents that push it more into a melee/ranged hybrid playstyle. But honestly, I don't need Kibellah to be zipping around the entire map. Between my MC which is a Soldier/Master Tactitian Pyro blaster caster, Cassia and Argenta, I'm more than covered for AOE damage. For me Kibellah is there to mop up the few stragglers who manage to survive my intial onslaught. But I understand what you're getting at. AM might not be super efficient but sometimes things are more fun that way.

[Desktop]

Yeah i hear you. Its like, ok so what character do i want to clear half the map in one turn. You have alot of choices.
Actually something i wanted to try with kibellah is more of a bodyguard role. I have these radiant gloves that allow you to dodge all melee attacks from allies so i was thinking i could put them on my main character and be safe from kibellah doing blade dance. I need to get my head around using veil of blades and when/where i should use it. Its tricky for me on this run because my main has very low initiative.

[Lichlord9333]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από la_nague:

I play her as Executioner xD

same I took it with my psyker pyromancer they get a nice synergy going as carnival of misery can make dots into regen and the pyromancer can make the burning permanent on allies + make their melee do fire damage meaning the executioner is able to draw more dps from it.

[Harukage]

On a side note. You can make her a psyker with Exemplar talents too.

[Axetwin]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Desktop:

Yeah i hear you. Its like, ok so what character do i want to clear half the map in one turn. You have alot of choices.
Actually something i wanted to try with kibellah is more of a bodyguard role. I have these radiant gloves that allow you to dodge all melee attacks from allies so i was thinking i could put them on my main character and be safe from kibellah doing blade dance. I need to get my head around using veil of blades and when/where i should use it. Its tricky for me on this run because my main has very low initiative.

If need be, use Bring it Down on her so you can get Veil of Blades off right away.

[BIG E.]

Assassin or executioner.

Arch millitant has no synergy with her, i didn't even know you could go arch millitant with bladedancer.

[Axetwin]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από BIG E.:

Assassin or executioner.

Arch millitant has no synergy with her, i didn't even know you could go arch millitant with bladedancer.

How do you figure? Death from Above doesn't count as a single target melee attack, and if you're building her correctly you should be able to use that skill 2 or 3 times (at minimum) per round which is 4-6 stacks of versatility. So I'm genuinely curious to know why you think Arch-Militant doesn't have any synergy with Bladedancer.

[BIG E.]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Axetwin:

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από BIG E.:

Assassin or executioner.

Arch millitant has no synergy with her, i didn't even know you could go arch millitant with bladedancer.

How do you figure? Death from Above doesn't count as a single target melee attack, and if you're building her correctly you should be able to use that skill 2 or 3 times (at minimum) per round which is 4-6 stacks of versatility. So I'm genuinely curious to know why you think Arch-Militant doesn't have any synergy with Bladedancer.

Because you don't need raw WS or BS to increase your damage on melee characters.

Versatility is insane on range because you have a lot of BS% damage increases via items and talents.

Again i am just saying it wouldn't be optimal. You can play anything the way you want.

Best kibellah nukes come from where it hurts or killing edge.

If i would be asked what to pick for kibellah, assassin is best, executioner is second best.

[jonoliveira12]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από BIG E.:

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Axetwin:

How do you figure? Death from Above doesn't count as a single target melee attack, and if you're building her correctly you should be able to use that skill 2 or 3 times (at minimum) per round which is 4-6 stacks of versatility. So I'm genuinely curious to know why you think Arch-Militant doesn't have any synergy with Bladedancer.

Because you don't need raw MA or BS to increase your damage on melee characters.

Versatility is insane on range because you have a lot of BS% damage increases via items and talents.

Again i am just saying it wouldn't be "optimal". You can play anything the way you want.

Best kibellah nukes come from where it hurts or killing edge.

Versatility is always good, though.

[Desktop]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Axetwin:

If need be, use Bring it Down on her so you can get Veil of Blades off right away.

Yeah it would work better if my main character was an officer/MT. Maybe for my next run instead of using these broken OP builds ill try to hold back a bit. Try to do more of a tank/healer/dps thing. Right now my team is just buff the OP characters in my party.

[BIG E.]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από jonoliveira12:

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από BIG E.:

Because you don't need raw MA or BS to increase your damage on melee characters.

Versatility is insane on range because you have a lot of BS% damage increases via items and talents.

Again i am just saying it wouldn't be "optimal". You can play anything the way you want.

Best kibellah nukes come from where it hurts or killing edge.

Versatility is always good, though.

Its mostly a waste if you don't need raw BS/WS.

And you don't need too much WS after certain point in this game on melee characters actually.

[Nether]

Ironically, Executioner Kibellah could definitely use infinite Weapon Skill to turn into Medicae to turn into Wounds to turn into more damage.

[Gengisgame]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από BIG E.:

Because you don't need raw WS or BS to increase your damage on melee characters.

Versatility is insane on range because you have a lot of BS% damage increases via items and talents.

Again i am just saying it wouldn't be optimal. You can play anything the way you want.

Best kibellah nukes come from where it hurts or killing edge.

If i would be asked what to pick for kibellah, assassin is best, executioner is second best.

WS increases melee damage by default because it increases crit chance

For Blade Dancer the base damage of death from above is ws+agility.

Blade Dancer also has a talent that uses weapon skill in place of medicae and increases crit damage based on medicae, so each increase in ws increases both crit chance and crit damage.

Then of course with Veil of blades, ws directly increases parry.

[BIG E.]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Gengisgame:

WS increases melee damage by default because it increases crit chance

For Blade Dancer the base damage of death from above is ws+agility.

Blade Dancer also has a talent that uses weapon skill in place of medicae and increases crit damage based on medicae, so each increase in ws increases both crit chance and crit damage.

Then of course with Veil of blades, ws directly increases parry.

Again i am not saying it wouldn't work, bladedancer is very strong just on its own.

I am just saying it falls less optimal than assassin and executioner.

I mean i don't need to really explain where it hurts, its broken. Most important part here is blood oath means killing edge always hits. Also death from above can just hit openings without any issue.

Parry is... for me not really important since by the time i can get meaningful parry from versatility i have over 200% dodge.