I just realized....

[Parallaxe]

Hello.

I just realized that we are actually playing an Inquisitor. A group of odd companions and uncovering heretical cults and xeno corruption while pretending to be some posh Rogue Trader.

It all makes sense now.

[Nether]

Ideally because I'm elsewhere giving orders by vox, or AT LEAST behind the biggest cover I can find.
And I also have my dodge - it's not as good as his, but I only face one dangerous attack per turn.

[Voodoo]

Автор сообщения: Nether

Ideally because I'm elsewhere giving orders by vox, or AT LEAST behind the biggest cover I can find.

your arch militant is going down in one shot, your average arch militant have dodge+0 and 35 in stats with maybe 40 in one or two.

[Ammo Donkey]

Автор сообщения: Voodoo

your arch militant is going down in one shot, your average arch militant have dodge+0 and 35 in stats with maybe 40 in one or two.

What are you talking about? Even by the dice game's rules you insist on using, that's an arch militant straight out of char gen. That's NOT "your average arch militant", that's a new hire who's never done arch-militanting before. Your average arch militant would be rank 4 or 5, at which point we're looking at stats in the 50s range, dodge+20, at least some kinda power armour and whatever else they managed to scrounge up in gear.

Now, I dunno where I'd find stats for space marines in RT, but BC has the stats for basic ♥♥♥♥♥ marines. Their stats are in the 40s range (discounting power armour and unnatural stats) and their dodge is +0.

...so the above average arch militant would have pretty good chances to win that fight.

Автор сообщения: Voodoo

Prodigies would be heroes of imperium not serving some dinky rogue trader nobody.

But thank you for confirming that you do not understand the lore. "Dinky rogue tarder nobody", lmao.

As for arch-militant thats what it says in book which introduced it as concept.
"Myriad are the roots of the Arch-militant. Many have served amongst the ranks of the Imperial Guard, and somehowsurvived against all the odds battles and campaigns that have claimed the lives of their entire regiments. Others have risen upfrom the native stock of hellish death worlds or are the survivors of catastrophes too terrible to contemplate. For every last standand total defeat, it always appears that one of a handful of warriors will somehow prevail. These are the men andwomen whose broken but still breathing bodies are recovered from the rubble, who have dug themselves outfrom beneath a mound of corpses to fight again, those few who the war zone no matter how terrible fails tobreak but, instead, re-forges into killers without peer. Invariably, they are reassigned to other units, wheretheir invaluable skills, or simply their luck, it is hoped will serve their new compatriots. In time, suchindividuals may attain the notice of higher commands and become detached “special units” toundertake do or die missions against the deadliest of foes, while others may “go rogue” anddisappear. Some even come to serve on the personal staff of such worthies as Lord Militantsor Inquisitors, and occasionally, alongside influential Rogue Traders as their own personalagents of destruction.."

Yeah no, these are not prodigies, they are veterans at best...

Yes those are the ORIGINS of an arch-militant. Where you start out right out of char gen, when you have to feel weak to appreciate the power you gain later. That's game design. But the average Arch-Militant isn't a rank 1 newblood with enforcer carapace and a longlas. They're rank 4 or 5, as laid out above. And that's not even going into the legends of the expanse of rank 6 and above.

[Voodoo]

Автор сообщения: Gak

Автор сообщения: Voodoo

your arch militant is going down in one shot, your average arch militant have dodge+0 and 35 in stats with maybe 40 in one or two.

What are you talking about? Even by the dice game's rules you insist on using, that's an arch militant straight out of char gen. That's NOT "your average arch militant", that's a new hire who's never done arch-militanting before. Your average arch militant would be rank 4 or 5, at which point we're looking at stats in the 50s range, dodge+20, at least some kinda power armour and whatever else they managed to scrounge up in gear.

Now, I dunno where I'd find stats for space marines in RT, but BC has the stats for basic ♥♥♥♥♥ marines. Their stats are in the 40s range (discounting power armour and unnatural stats) and their dodge is +0.

...so the above average arch militant would have pretty good chances to win that fight.

Автор сообщения: Voodoo

Prodigies would be heroes of imperium not serving some dinky rogue trader nobody.

But thank you for confirming that you do not understand the lore. "Dinky rogue tarder nobody", lmao.

As for arch-militant thats what it says in book which introduced it as concept.
"Myriad are the roots of the Arch-militant. Many have served amongst the ranks of the Imperial Guard, and somehowsurvived against all the odds battles and campaigns that have claimed the lives of their entire regiments. Others have risen upfrom the native stock of hellish death worlds or are the survivors of catastrophes too terrible to contemplate. For every last standand total defeat, it always appears that one of a handful of warriors will somehow prevail. These are the men andwomen whose broken but still breathing bodies are recovered from the rubble, who have dug themselves outfrom beneath a mound of corpses to fight again, those few who the war zone no matter how terrible fails tobreak but, instead, re-forges into killers without peer. Invariably, they are reassigned to other units, wheretheir invaluable skills, or simply their luck, it is hoped will serve their new compatriots. In time, suchindividuals may attain the notice of higher commands and become detached “special units” toundertake do or die missions against the deadliest of foes, while others may “go rogue” anddisappear. Some even come to serve on the personal staff of such worthies as Lord Militantsor Inquisitors, and occasionally, alongside influential Rogue Traders as their own personalagents of destruction.."

Yeah no, these are not prodigies, they are veterans at best...

Yes those are the ORIGINS of an arch-militant. Where you start out right out of char gen, when you have to feel weak to appreciate the power you gain later. That's game design. But the average Arch-Militant isn't a rank 1 newblood with enforcer carapace and a longlas. They're rank 4 or 5, as laid out above. And that's not even going into the legends of the expanse of rank 6 and above.

Straight out of chargen is average, if you take a marine in bc, deathwatch or dark heresy at chargen you get brother genericus or generic gray knight. Throw any xp ontop of that you go into first company or chapter heroes territory and same applies to any pc whether it be guardsman in only war or arbitrator in dark heresy. Even rogue trader xenos at chargen are essentially playable generic statblocks.

You said

Yeah, and the personal retinue of a Rogue Trader is full of those prodigies. They don't recruit random mercenaries from a random world to join them on the bridge. They hire the best experts a sector has to offer. And THEN they kit them out in archeotech and xeno gear. You put Sly Marbo in power armour and hand him a fractal blade and a fusion pistol, and he is gonna go to town on a space marine.

so im sorry veteran guardsman or random death worlder is now a prodigy is he?

[Ammo Donkey]

Автор сообщения: Voodoo

Straight out of chargen is average

Citation needed.

so im sorry veteran guardsman or random death worlder is now a prodigy is he?

Did you even read the block of text you initially quoted? No, of course you didn't. And you also don't seem to know who Sly Marbo is. But hey, that's fine. Want me to link you the lexicanum page?

[Voodoo]

Автор сообщения: Gak

Автор сообщения: Voodoo

Straight out of chargen is average

Citation needed.

so im sorry veteran guardsman or random death worlder is now a prodigy is he?

Did you even read the block of text you initially quoted? No, of course you didn't. And you also don't seem to know who Sly Marbo is. But hey, that's fine. Want me to link you the lexicanum page?

"Since you are playing a character that is expected to be a
cut above the rest of humanity, you may re-roll any one result
of your choosing."
Every system have something equivalent to above, either youre cut above other marines or youve been blessed by dark gods so one of your characteristics is on average 1 point higher.

Yes every arch militant is sly marbo thats why sly marbo is a name known across imperium and there are less than dozen known dynasties with none of their arch militants being known.
It is embarassing that you think those are comparable.

also hint, sly marbo have worse stats than imperial assassins and barely better than marine in tabletop and tabletop really favours stats of named characters.

Finally
"In time, such individuals may attain the notice of higher commands and become detached "special units" to undertake do-or-die missions against the deadliest of foes, while others may "go rogue" and disappear. Some even come to serve on the personal staff of such worthies as Lord Militants or Inquisitors,"
So i guess AFTER the service with rogue trader these legends of imperium then join other forces, i guess every inquisitor have with them an army of ex arch miliutants who can take on armies of marines but they instead decide to request help from marine chapters...

[Nether]

I'm honestly starting to doubt we're even talking about the same topic here, so let me take a moment for some cases of 'Punch-out between Rogue Trader and Space Marine' to see if we agree on anything.

• White room brawl between ye old 'average' space marine and whatever 'average' Rogue Trader means (for how elite the Astartes can be, I'm pretty sure there's less RTs, so it becomes harder to define an average) - or any single member of their retinue, really: strong advantage to the Marine if we're talking something with rules. It becomes a borderline guarantee if we're talking pure lore.
  
  
• Rogue Trader with all they can field versus a single average Astartes and all they can field. The sheer amount of materiel a RT can bring down here gives them an overwhelming advantage in both rules and lore - every single rogue trader worth of the name can drop fire from orbit, and you'd need a teleporting terminator to even start arguing with that.
  I wouldn't consider 'teleporting terminator' average marine.
  
  
• Rogue Trader with a reasonable boots-on-the-ground retinue versus... well, it can be the same Marine from before. I'd put the minimum for 'reasonable retinue' as RT, Arch-Militant, Explorator and a 'strange trump card' of some sort - probably a Psyker or a Navigator, but I put Xenos mercenaries in this category. Also about fifty redshirts with a variety of weapons - I'm fine with assuming that only 10 of them have weapons heavy enough to worry the Marine (even if I'm pretty sure they ALL would have a fun assortment of grenades for every occasion).
  
  This is in the realm of 'interesting challenge' when it comes to lore: I can see it going either way and being an interesting story - but if we're talking game rules the pure action economy puts the marine at a disadvantage.
  
  Heck, if we give the generic 'hired gun' profile to the redshirts they shoot at around 45 (35, +10 for aiming), and anyone with a name can only be more dangerous than that.
  
  Do we want to say that plasma is too pricey and they have to use something that kills the Marine in three hits instead of two? Okay.
  Do we want to say the Space Marine goes first and just automatically kills, I dunno - two? Three? Four targets? Unlikely, but still acceptable.
  Do we want to say he also automatically succeeds at the Dodge attempt he makes? ALSO okay.
  
  Statistically, he still goes down within two rounds.
  I'm not going to simulate the combat any deeper than this, so if you want to dig into full loadouts and ranks be my guest, I won't engage.

What are we even comparing?
Rogue Traders and Marines play entirely different games and bring entirely different resources to the table: a marine might be statistically better than any single being a Rogue Trader brings to the party, but Rogue Traders are geopolitics - and they bring MANY people to the party, all dressed in ridiculous bling.

[Voodoo]

Single rogue trader or single arch militant vs single marine, they meet on the street, give each other a side eye and in 20s somebody will end up on the ground.

Cause thats what was said

Rogue Traders opperate on the power levels of Space Marines.

is any rogue trader as a person as combat capable as marine? no
is any rogue trader dynasty as combat capable as single marine? no, sheer numbers say single marine cant win that engagement.
in both cases this statement is wrong, but

Archeotech and Xenotech can get any human to space marine levels of combat performance. Educate yourself on the lore before you comment on it.

implies it talks about a single person and...

Even so, with enough Archeotch and Xenotech a Rogue Trader who doesn't even specialize in combat can get to the level where they can duel space marines and expect to win with reasonable odds. And those who specialize on it, like that arch militant, can take on multiple at once without too much trouble.

removes any doubt

1 any rogue trader/arch militant vs 1 any space marine, for the sake of argument adopted as average to remove lowest outliers

Scenario where a single marine would encounter entire rogue trader dynasty would be ambush scenario initiated by marine or argument ending in violence on board of the ship.

Discussion moved towards the rpg because honestly only lore we have about mentioned xenotech and arch militants is rogue trader rpg so the only way to determine a power of xeno weapon existing only in that rpg is to look at its damage number in comparison to other weapons.

[Nether]

Mmh, I got lost in the discussion.

The gear to do that exists - even the 'humble' man-portable Lascannon can burn a nice hole into an Astartes, and if you want one that's starting equipment tier.

So - sure, the chance is there even for beginner characters - the Marine is faster, stronger and more skilled, but he's one bad roll away from being charcoal, even if he'll probably win the initiative and full-auto-bolter-burst a starting Rogue Trader into a fine red mist.

And that's about all I can say about one-on-ones.
'Down to the luck of the dice, with an edge to the Astartes that grows dimmer the more bling the RT collects.'

Lore-wise, the Astartes SHOULD crush the RT's head into a pulp, but I suspect any RT going into a duel with a Marine would have enough plot armor to have Just Another Trick ready.

[Isseus]

Автор сообщения: Gak

Odd companions, uncovering heretical cults and dealing with xeno corruption are literally all in the job description of being a Rogue Trader, though. The one thing we do not have is the seal of the Inquisition, as a certain NPC keeps reminding us when he bosses us around.

To be fair, you can tell Hein to jog off about everything except the halo device.

[Isseus]

Автор сообщения: Voodoo

Single rogue trader or single arch militant vs single marine, they meet on the street, give each other a side eye and in 20s somebody will end up on the ground.

Cause thats what was said

Rogue Traders opperate on the power levels of Space Marines.

is any rogue trader as a person as combat capable as marine? no
is any rogue trader dynasty as combat capable as single marine? no, sheer numbers say single marine cant win that engagement.
in both cases this statement is wrong, but

Archeotech and Xenotech can get any human to space marine levels of combat performance. Educate yourself on the lore before you comment on it.

implies it talks about a single person and...

Even so, with enough Archeotch and Xenotech a Rogue Trader who doesn't even specialize in combat can get to the level where they can duel space marines and expect to win with reasonable odds. And those who specialize on it, like that arch militant, can take on multiple at once without too much trouble.

removes any doubt

1 any rogue trader/arch militant vs 1 any space marine, for the sake of argument adopted as average to remove lowest outliers

Scenario where a single marine would encounter entire rogue trader dynasty would be ambush scenario initiated by marine or argument ending in violence on board of the ship.

Discussion moved towards the rpg because honestly only lore we have about mentioned xenotech and arch militants is rogue trader rpg so the only way to determine a power of xeno weapon existing only in that rpg is to look at its damage number in comparison to other weapons.

Where did the bad Rogue Trader touch you? Have you told your Chapter Master or another trusted adult about it?

[Voodoo]

Автор сообщения: Nether

Mmh, I got lost in the discussion.

The gear to do that exists - even the 'humble' man-portable Lascannon can burn a nice hole into an Astartes, and if you want one that's starting equipment tier.

So - sure, the chance is there even for beginner characters - the Marine is faster, stronger and more skilled, but he's one bad roll away from being charcoal, even if he'll probably win the initiative and full-auto-bolter-burst a starting Rogue Trader into a fine red mist.

And that's about all I can say about one-on-ones.
'Down to the luck of the dice, with an edge to the Astartes that grows dimmer the more bling the RT collects.'

Lore-wise, the Astartes SHOULD crush the RT's head into a pulp, but I suspect any RT going into a duel with a Marine would have enough plot armor to have Just Another Trick ready.

Thats giving rogue trader all the benefit they can, but yes, i dont even want to go into minutia of the chances since rogue trader at start cannot have heavy weapon training(arch militant possibly could) and that rogue trader doesnt have dodge by default(though can buy it early). All of above is true.
Ultimately everyone have chance to put even chosen of chaos down, both in rpg and in lore, just be in perfect position with suitable weapon and score a lucky shot.

Rogue traders are not demigods who can crush anyone who even farts in their driection, theyre just tool imperium uses to deal with low intensity conflict and colonisation with minimal effort.
Theyre usually ex officer who certainly didnt get combat experience sitting in a bunker, given single hand me down ship, random crew and paper saying they can go outside borders and deal with xenos if it will ultimately help the imperium saving administratum hassle of mobilising a battlefleet or organising a crusade and at worst if they fail imperium will lose next to nothing.

[Nether]

Автор сообщения: Voodoo

Theyre usually ex officer who certainly didnt get combat experience sitting in a bunker, given single ship, random crew and paper saying they can go outside borders and deal with xenos if it will ultimately help the imperium saving administratum hassle of mobilising a battlefleet or organising a crusade.

I can't agree with this.
A new Rogue Trader COULD be this, and so could an emergency heir (like the one we play in this game, in fact) - but once you start talking dynasties, unless ♥♥♥♥ hits the fan the heir WILL get the best education, training and preparation that money can buy - the sort of money that can purchase planets.

[Voodoo]

Автор сообщения: Nether

Автор сообщения: Voodoo

Theyre usually ex officer who certainly didnt get combat experience sitting in a bunker, given single ship, random crew and paper saying they can go outside borders and deal with xenos if it will ultimately help the imperium saving administratum hassle of mobilising a battlefleet or organising a crusade.

I can't agree with this.
A new Rogue Trader COULD be this, and so could an emergency heir (like the one we play in this game, in fact) - but once you start talking dynasties, unless ♥♥♥♥ hits the fan the heir WILL get the best education, training and preparation that money can buy - the sort of money that can purchase planets.

Yeah, next generations wont even get a ship, your family was given a chance already, administratum wont waste any more resources on failure.

Many rogue trader dynasties in fact do not live to see the heir take over, quite a few are put down by imperium itself once they develop delusions of grandeur. Winterscale is a widely known dynasty while many others are not because they actually achieved any kind of success in a sector known to operate countless rogue traders. Even footfall founder Parsimus Dewain is only known for founding footfall and dying from natural causes with 0 mention of heir, he was also <drumroll> militarum colonel.

Also a small thing, but new colony is usually much cheaper than a combat capable voidship, these things are expensive with battlefleet gothic only having about 40 such vessels. Planet is only worth as much as it can produce or help to produce and few planets by themselves can produce a voidship.

[Ammo Donkey]

Автор сообщения: Voodoo

Single rogue trader or single arch militant vs single marine, they meet on the street, give each other a side eye and in 20s somebody will end up on the ground.

Yeah, let's go with that.

1 any rogue trader/arch militant vs 1 any space marine, for the sake of argument adopted as average to remove lowest outliers

You know how averages work, right? The average rogue trader is somewhere between Winterscale or Haarlock themselves and a character fresh out of char gen. So around rank 4 or 5 in terms of the RPG. The average space marine, meanwhile, is a tactical marine. Not a Scout, not a Terminator. The statblock from BC.

Discussion moved towards the rpg because honestly only lore we have about mentioned xenotech and arch militants is rogue trader rpg so the only way to determine a power of xeno weapon existing only in that rpg is to look at its damage number in comparison to other weapons.

We do have them turn up now and then as secondary characters in novels. Usually, as I mentioned earlier, those Rogue Traders are armed with whatever magical mcguffin the author wanted to throw at the story.