Space Marines on the Emperor and humanity

[REhorror]

To quote another thread:
Space Marines when they talk about the Emperor: nuuh uh he my daddy he ain't no God.
Space Marine when they talk with normal humans: Kneel, mortals, kneel before the Angels of Death!

So what is it going to be? You can't treat humanity as mortals while claiming that your Da-da isn't a God and you are an angel.

This is specifically hilarious in Ulfar's case, he calls the Emperor the Allfather, which is another name for Odin, a Nordic God, or apparently Odin is just another man to him?

Worse, Ulfar is actually religious, and he believes in the various Wolf gods in Fenris. Just not the Emprah for some reasons.

EDIT: And this is why the religious SM chapters like the Black Templars are consistent with the setting and Sigismund is a maximum chad.

[REhorror]

Originally posted by Zsrai:

Originally posted by REhorror:

Sure man, just like vikings think Odin and Thor as really cool dudes but not gods.

Nice counter argument. Have you read any lore?

Obviously I do, and that's exactly it, really.

The Space Wolves are space vikings, all of their culture and lingos borrow heavily from Viking and Nordic culture.

Except the vikings have no problem with ancestor gods like Odin and Thor, and wouldn't deny the Allfather being a god, that's obvious Christian nonsense (Christians actually do try to deny Odin and Thor's divinity or even call them demons).

[Khryst]

Originally posted by REhorror:

Originally posted by Zsrai:

Nice counter argument. Have you read any lore?

Obviously I do, and that's exactly it, really.

The Space Wolves are space vikings, all of their culture and lingos borrow heavily from Viking and Nordic culture.

Except the vikings have no problem with ancestor gods like Odin and Thor, and wouldn't deny the Allfather being a god, that's obvious Christian nonsense (Christians actually do try to deny Odin and Thor's divinity or even call them demons).

You're also ignoring the part, that one Norse gods were MORTAL. even by the ancient belief they had thier fates and a big part of Odin's lore was that he fought against it.

second the Space Wolf beliefs were INSPIRED by the ancient norse beliefs. It's not a one for one line drawn. The Wolves believe the Emperor is an extremely powerful mortal that kicks ass, protects them and has god like power...which makes him the Allfather...but he is still just a man and not a god. He is the EMPEROR OF MANKIND and that makes him worthy of respect and reverence for they (the marines) are his mailed fist sent to fight, kill, and possibly die themselves for him and humanity.

and with a few notable exceptions, ALL the loyalist space marine chapters accept that while he may have god like power he is just a man, yet at the same time that man is the Emperor of Mankind whom they respect, admire, worship, and serve. Not because he is a god, but because he the Emperor.

Pretty much every chapter also reveres their Primarchs to that kind of degree as well.

Also because the Marines see themselves (are are treated as more then human by the people of the Imperium) as the Mailed Fist of the Emperor whose job it is to kill the enemies of mankind and protect humanity from any and all threats they are going to sometimes mockingly sometimes more sincerely see a person that isn't as "powerful" as themselves as a "mere mortal". This of course varies from chapter to chapter and even from marine to marine.

[REhorror]

Originally posted by kblaze13:

Originally posted by REhorror:

Obviously I do, and that's exactly it, really.

The Space Wolves are space vikings, all of their culture and lingos borrow heavily from Viking and Nordic culture.

Except the vikings have no problem with ancestor gods like Odin and Thor, and wouldn't deny the Allfather being a god, that's obvious Christian nonsense (Christians actually do try to deny Odin and Thor's divinity or even call them demons).

You're also ignoring the part, that one Norse gods were MORTAL. even by the ancient belief they had thier fates and a big part of Odin's lore was that he fought against it.

second the Space Wolf beliefs were INSPIRED by the ancient norse beliefs. It's not a one for one line drawn. The Wolves believe the Emperor is an extremely powerful mortal that kicks ass, protects them and has god like power...which makes him the Allfather...but he is still just a man and not a god. He is the EMPEROR OF MANKIND and that makes him worthy of respect and reverence for they (the marines) are his mailed fist sent to fight, kill, and possibly die themselves for him and humanity.

and with a few notable exceptions, ALL the loyalist space marine chapters accept that while he may have god like power he is just a man, yet at the same time that man is the Emperor of Mankind whom they respect, admire, worship, and serve. Not because he is a god, but because he the Emperor.

Pretty much every chapter also reveres their Primarchs to that kind of degree as well.

Also because the Marines see themselves (are are treated as more then human by the people of the Imperium) as the Mailed Fist of the Emperor whose job it is to kill the enemies of mankind and protect humanity from any and all threats they are going to sometimes mockingly sometimes more sincerely see a person that isn't as "powerful" as themselves as a "mere mortal". This of course varies from chapter to chapter and even from marine to marine.

I believe the Norse gods are immortal tho? They can just be hurt, like the elves but they are functionally ageless.

But mortality doesn't change divinity too, a lot of gods are essentially men becoming gods, for example in chinese culture with Guan Yu (a 3 Kingdoms general who's so honorable and well-loved he's worshiped and becomes the chinese God of War), or the case of Journey of the West where a buddha disciple gets punished to become a man, does good deeds and becomes a Buddha.

The great divide of men and gods come due to Christian (and probably Islamic) theology somewhere in the medieval and renaissance era where they pretend only their god is real, omnipotent and has no flaws/weakness, as some sort of conversion tools.

For the Space Marines in particular, the whole thing about ancient kings/emperors claiming their descent from gods is to reinforce their divine right to rule, them claiming the Emperor to be just a man while calling themselves the Angels of Death is just a huge slap in the face.

Luckily, SM chapters that do worship the Emperor as God exist like the Black Templars. Still, SOME writers still try to pretend the BT doesn't believe in the Emperor in some books too.

[Khryst]

Originally posted by REhorror:

Originally posted by kblaze13:

You're also ignoring the part, that one Norse gods were MORTAL. even by the ancient belief they had thier fates and a big part of Odin's lore was that he fought against it.

second the Space Wolf beliefs were INSPIRED by the ancient norse beliefs. It's not a one for one line drawn. The Wolves believe the Emperor is an extremely powerful mortal that kicks ass, protects them and has god like power...which makes him the Allfather...but he is still just a man and not a god. He is the EMPEROR OF MANKIND and that makes him worthy of respect and reverence for they (the marines) are his mailed fist sent to fight, kill, and possibly die themselves for him and humanity.

and with a few notable exceptions, ALL the loyalist space marine chapters accept that while he may have god like power he is just a man, yet at the same time that man is the Emperor of Mankind whom they respect, admire, worship, and serve. Not because he is a god, but because he the Emperor.

Pretty much every chapter also reveres their Primarchs to that kind of degree as well.

Also because the Marines see themselves (are are treated as more then human by the people of the Imperium) as the Mailed Fist of the Emperor whose job it is to kill the enemies of mankind and protect humanity from any and all threats they are going to sometimes mockingly sometimes more sincerely see a person that isn't as "powerful" as themselves as a "mere mortal". This of course varies from chapter to chapter and even from marine to marine.

I believe the Norse gods are immortal tho? They can just be hurt, like the elves but they are functionally ageless.

But mortality doesn't change divinity too, a lot of gods are essentially men becoming gods, for example in chinese culture with Guan Yu (a 3 Kingdoms general who's so honorable and well-loved he's worshiped and becomes the chinese God of War), or the case of Journey of the West where a buddha disciples gets punished to become a man, does good deeds and becomes a Buddha.

The great divide of men and gods come due to Christian (and probably Islamic) theology somewhere in the medieval and renaissance era where they pretend only their god is real, omnipotent and has no flaws/weakness, as some sort of conversion tools.

For the Space Marines in particular, the whole thing about ancient kings/emperors claiming their descent from gods is to reinforce their divine right to rule, them claiming the Emperor to be just a man while calling themselves the Angels of Death is just a huge slap in the face.

Luckily, SM chapters that do worship the Emperor as God exist like the Black Templars. Still, SOME writers still try to pretend the BT doesn't believe in the Emperor in some books too.

no the norse gods can be KILLED and are mortal yet age differently then humanity, not just hurt which was huge difference in their pantheon compared to damn near all others. Yet at the same time the norse also believed that death, be it the death of a god or a human, was already written/woven into fate, and cannot be changed for good or bad, It's also why mortals gaining the glory of being chosen by the Valkyrie and being taken to Valhalla was such a big deal also As it was how Odin was trying to defy his fate of being killed and eaten by Fenrir.

The story of mistletoe and Baldur is also such an instance, while most of the others are tied to the "Fate of the Gods" or Ragnarok, which is most often depicted incorrectly as the "end of the world", due to it saying the Heavens will burn, most of the gods will be dead, all the monsters will be dead, humanity will suffer endless torment, and the earth will sink into the sea. Yet it also says the Earth will rise from the oceans again and Baldur will return to life to guide the worlds to peace.

the "angels of death" is waxing poetic. As is being the "mailed fist of the emperor". They don't actually believe they are angels but act as "angels of death" bringing death to the foes of mankind in mass numbers, in fact the christian bible doesn't even teach that an "angel of death" even exists just that an angel at god's command killed 100k assyrians. Many people also contribute the whole "death of the firstborn" to an angel performing the act but the bible never actually says it was an angel just that it happened as "proof of gods power" as one of the Plagues of Egypt.

So you're putting your understanding/bias into things that aren't actually there. I mean 2 loyalist chapters straight up call themselves Angels, Dark and Blood yet neither think of themselves as actual Angels it's simply using iconic imagery from Humanity's past (in the 40k universe) to both inspire allies and intimidate foes. Remember not all foes of Humanity are Alien or even Chaos as you have Humans that stand against the Imperium as well. Although most of those have been wiped out by the imperium by the time of the actual 41st millennium. as that was part of the Great Crusade 10000 years ago.

[REhorror]

Originally posted by kblaze13:

Originally posted by REhorror:

I believe the Norse gods are immortal tho? They can just be hurt, like the elves but they are functionally ageless.

But mortality doesn't change divinity too, a lot of gods are essentially men becoming gods, for example in chinese culture with Guan Yu (a 3 Kingdoms general who's so honorable and well-loved he's worshiped and becomes the chinese God of War), or the case of Journey of the West where a buddha disciples gets punished to become a man, does good deeds and becomes a Buddha.

The great divide of men and gods come due to Christian (and probably Islamic) theology somewhere in the medieval and renaissance era where they pretend only their god is real, omnipotent and has no flaws/weakness, as some sort of conversion tools.

For the Space Marines in particular, the whole thing about ancient kings/emperors claiming their descent from gods is to reinforce their divine right to rule, them claiming the Emperor to be just a man while calling themselves the Angels of Death is just a huge slap in the face.

Luckily, SM chapters that do worship the Emperor as God exist like the Black Templars. Still, SOME writers still try to pretend the BT doesn't believe in the Emperor in some books too.

no the norse gods can be KILLED and are mortal yet age differently then humanity, not just hurt which was huge difference in their pantheon compared to damn near all others. Yet at the same time the norse also believed that death, be it the death of a god or a human, was already written/woven into fate, and cannot be changed for good or bad, It's also why mortals gaining the glory of being chosen by the Valkyrie and being taken to Valhalla was such a big deal also As it was how Odin was trying to defy his fate of being killed and eaten by Fenrir.

The story of mistletoe and Baldur is also such an instance, while most of the others are tied to the "Fate of the Gods" or Ragnarok, which is most often depicted incorrectly as the "end of the world", due to it saying the Heavens will burn, most of the gods will be dead, all the monsters will be dead, humanity will suffer endless torment, and the earth will sink into the sea. Yet it also says the Earth will rise from the oceans again and Baldur will return to life to guide the worlds to peace.

the "angels of death" is waxing poetic. As is being the "mailed fist of the emperor". They don't actually believe they are angels but act as "angels of death" bringing death to the foes of mankind in mass numbers, in fact the christian bible doesn't even teach that an "angel of death" even exists just that an angel at god's command killed 100k assyrians. Many people also contribute the whole "death of the firstborn" to an angel performing the act but the bible never actually says it was an angel just that it happened as "proof of gods power" as one of the Plagues of Egypt.

So you're putting your understanding/bias into things that aren't actually there. I mean 2 loyalist chapters straight up call themselves Angels, Dark and Blood yet neither think of themselves as actual Angels it's simply using iconic imagery from Humanity's past (in the 40k universe) to both inspire allies and intimidate foes. Remember not all foes of Humanity are Alien or even Chaos as you have Humans that stand against the Imperium as well. Although most of those have been wiped out by the imperium by the time of the actual 41st millennium. as that was part of the Great Crusade 10000 years ago.

As said again, mortality doesn't make gods not gods, plenty of gods are mortal and can die, in fact, it's a huge symbolist thing of the passing of Ages (where old gods die and new ones reign).

The Dark Angels are indeed heavy on the Medieval knight iconography, and they suffer a massive purge by the Lion and the Emprah due to their knightly culture. I'm not sure if this is still a thing now among the Dark Angels.

The angel of death is a medieval Christian entity, which hugely inspires 40K in general, being medieval fantasy in spess.

[Zsrai]

Originally posted by REhorror:

The Dark Angels are indeed heavy on the Medieval knight iconography, and they suffer a massive purge by the Lion and the Emprah due to their knightly culture. I'm not sure if this is still a thing now among the Dark Angels.

They weren't purged because of their "knightly culture" at all, not by the Emperor (it happened after the Siege of Terra). Some of them turned traitor and attacked the Lion, and got killed/driven off (hence the Fallen and... the whole Dark Angels story hook that they grind into the dirt). There wasn't a real purge so much as a battle and then hunting down "traitors".

[=DeadShot=]

Originally posted by Zsrai:

Originally posted by REhorror:

The Dark Angels are indeed heavy on the Medieval knight iconography, and they suffer a massive purge by the Lion and the Emprah due to their knightly culture. I'm not sure if this is still a thing now among the Dark Angels.

They weren't purged because of their "knightly culture" at all, not by the Emperor (it happened after the Siege of Terra). Some of them turned traitor and attacked the Lion, and got killed/driven off (hence the Fallen and... the whole Dark Angels story hook that they grind into the dirt). There wasn't a real purge so much as a battle and then hunting down "traitors".

And some of them found themselves on the wrong side of the Heresy and did everything to flee , hide, return in the IOM side. I liked that not all or majority of the Fallen are Chaos corrupted. And the first thing they knew something is horrible wrong is when they open fire on the Lion ships.

[REhorror]

Originally posted by Zsrai:

Originally posted by REhorror:

The Dark Angels are indeed heavy on the Medieval knight iconography, and they suffer a massive purge by the Lion and the Emprah due to their knightly culture. I'm not sure if this is still a thing now among the Dark Angels.

They weren't purged because of their "knightly culture" at all, not by the Emperor (it happened after the Siege of Terra). Some of them turned traitor and attacked the Lion, and got killed/driven off (hence the Fallen and... the whole Dark Angels story hook that they grind into the dirt). There wasn't a real purge so much as a battle and then hunting down "traitors".

There were at least 3 purges, the traitor purge of Luther was the 3rd.
Before that, Lion purged 1 "evil" knight order that was against him uniting the knights, and then 2nd one is about making the knightly orders more in-line with the terran based Muhreen.
I'm talking about the 2nd.

[Harukage]

The Fallen loyalists were the first who learned of the Lions return and moved to help their primarch. Ther first thing they did after rejoining him was to purge a warband of The Fallen who turned to chaos. Since then the loyal Fallen are named - the Risen.

[REhorror]

Also, the Dark Angels's literal theme is around Arthurian tale, and the search for the Grail.

Yet of course, absolutely no religion in there, no siree.

[RTK|Dagonet]

When Faith works better than Science, atheists argue semantics.

[REhorror]

Originally posted by Have a Happy New Year:

When Faith works better than Science, atheists argue semantics.

He's right you know.

[Zsrai]

Originally posted by REhorror:

Also, the Dark Angels's literal theme is around Arthurian tale, and the search for the Grail.

Yet of course, absolutely no religion in there, no siree.

You seem to have immense difficulty accepting that something can be based on another thing without utilizing every single aspect of the second thing. Just because the Dark Angels are (loosely) based on Arthurian myth doesn't mean that they are religious just because the myth is.

[RTK|Dagonet]

"I'm going to argue that a Chapter named the Angels does not have religious overtones."

[REhorror]

Originally posted by Zsrai:

Originally posted by REhorror:

Also, the Dark Angels's literal theme is around Arthurian tale, and the search for the Grail.

Yet of course, absolutely no religion in there, no siree.

You seem to have immense difficulty accepting that something can be based on another thing without utilizing every single aspect of the second thing. Just because the Dark Angels are (loosely) based on Arthurian myth doesn't mean that they are religious just because the myth is.

So...we are going to borrow religious iconography and pretend everything is atheist, even when the Angels themselves speak of magic, magical weapons and stuff?