Dogmatic path (middle of ACT 2) seems crippling and not logical

[mudakonn]

Maybe it is only me but i really wanted to go blind with dogmatic...but after seeing choices it feels really dumb - Owlcats treat Dogmatic like "chaotic evil" since if You impose house rule to only select dogmatic if available You end up just executing everyone - what is the point in that?

Roleplay with dogmatic is basically unplayable since You will be executing people left and right with no benefits at all.

Dogmatic "should" be "lawful neutral" not "chaotic evil" like it is in this game.

[Cutlass Jack]

Its only illogical because you're thinking its D&D alignments.

Dogmatic is religious pragmatism. Kind of like Regil in Pathfinder. You make the hard choices because even worse things happen if you don't. And as you play the game you'll see their point. They have seen what happens if you make too many iconoclast choices.

[Lucifer]

It is because you see the laws of the Imperium from our moral standards and they look too evil. However, from the right perspective, the dogmatic path is lawful, neutral or even good.

[Szy]

The problem is that the dogma of the Empire of Mankind in 40k is very much evil. I agree that there are a bunch of situations in the game where the dogmatic choice feels oppressive, but the dogma is "Anything that deviates from the norm must be destroyed utterly and without second thought.".
Following the dogma is lawful neutral. The dogma itself is evil.
A more humane dogmatic character might be roleplayed by not *always* taking the dogmatic choice, but in a game where that affects game mechanics and rewards, that's frustrating. I don't think there's a really satisfying way to remedy that conflict in a CRPG.

[Neoz]

The problem with your assertion is that, adhering fully to dogmatic tendencies you become Chorda. Eating human brains(note, no, most dogmatic people would not do this) and burning Jean Valjean for stealing a loaf of bread. Of course, you can soften this somewhat, but as an example, a commissar is not only allowed, but expected, to shoot any soldier that so much as shows an inkling of fleeing. Its actually considered being extremely merciful if they simply show themselves to the soldier as a "reminder" instead of blowing their brains out then and there.

[mudakonn]

Originally posted by Cutlass Jack:

Its only illogical because you're thinking its D&D alignments.

Dogmatic is religious pragmatism. Kind of like Regil in Pathfinder. You make the hard choices because even worse things happen if you don't. And as you play the game you'll see their point. They have seen what happens if you make too many iconoclast choices.

You are correct in real life sense - especially if You follow history. It is correct that i am in D and D world and expected Dogmatic to be like a "pragmatical neutral" approach. You are a firm conservative ruler not a zealous tyrant.

Maybe I will stand corrected at the end of the game since this is my first 40k Warhammer experience

[Cutlass Jack]

Originally posted by mudakonn:

Originally posted by Cutlass Jack:

Its only illogical because you're thinking its D&D alignments.

Dogmatic is religious pragmatism. Kind of like Regil in Pathfinder. You make the hard choices because even worse things happen if you don't. And as you play the game you'll see their point. They have seen what happens if you make too many iconoclast choices.

You are correct in real life sense - especially if You follow history. It is correct that i am in D and D world and expected Dogmatic to be like a "pragmatical neutral" approach. You are a firm conservative ruler not a zealous tyrant.

Maybe I will stand corrected at the end of the game since this is my first 40k Warhammer experience

Yeah its more to do with the 40k universe than anything else.

Like you'll see a choice for dogmatic that's 'kill the people because they might be tainted by chaos.' and being a nice guy you go for the 'we should try to save the people' iconoclast option.

And then half the people you save turn into horrible monsters that eat the other half and part of your crew. And you think to yourself that maybe those Dogma guys weren't that wrong.

I still stick to my Iconoclast roleplay despite that, but as a player I make those choices knowing what I'm getting into.

[jonoliveira12]

Dogmatic is not even evil. On Janus, you get 2 dogma choices for the boy hiding in the bard, that was part of the rebellion:
-turn him into a servitor
-take him on under your protection

Both are dogmatic.
This is not a Good vs Evil setting, it is Order vs Chaos. Both turning the boy into a cyborg slave for eternal labour, as punishment for his rebellion against an Emperor-appointed regime, or taking him under imperial protection for saying the truth and rising up against a corrupt governor; are Dogmatic choices.
Both are choices that impose and benefit a state of Order and consequence.

[Elizabello]

Pragmatic dogmatism aside - some of the dogmatic choices are really humane - way more humane then iconoclast. Not all of dogmatic choices kill. In the same dialog dogmatic choices can vary from making ill-informed murders to actually getting the most peaceful resolutuons based on what you know.

[corisai]

Originally posted by jonoliveira12:

Dogmatic is not even evil. On Janus, you get 2 dogma choices for the boy hiding in the bard, that was part of the rebellion:
-turn him into a servitor
-take him on under your protection

Three : kill him for being traitor. And he IS actually a traitor beguiled by xenos masters

[corisai]

OP - you're not forced to pick every possible Dogmatic option, you know?

[jonoliveira12]

Originally posted by corisai:

Originally posted by jonoliveira12:

Dogmatic is not even evil. On Janus, you get 2 dogma choices for the boy hiding in the bard, that was part of the rebellion:
-turn him into a servitor
-take him on under your protection

Three : kill him for being traitor. And he IS actually a traitor beguiled by xenos masters

He is not a traitor, he is a scared kid, that took arms against a heretical politician way above his station.

You can even say he is a hero and a martyr.

[corisai]

Originally posted by jonoliveira12:

He is not a traitor, he is a scared kid, that took arms against a heretical politician way above his station.

You're mistaking him with old servant. He's indeed have some facts pointing on Governor heresy. But he - he have nothing like usual "taxes too high". And in fact he's puppet for xeno.

If he would call Governor a heretic - he would be a hero in my book. But he don't know it.

[jonoliveira12]

Originally posted by corisai:

Originally posted by jonoliveira12:

He is not a traitor, he is a scared kid, that took arms against a heretical politician way above his station.

You're mistaking him with old servant. He's indeed have some facts pointing on Governor heresy. But he - he have nothing like usual "taxes too high". And in fact he's puppet for xeno.

If he would call Governor a heretic - he would be a hero in my book. But he don't know it.

He knows something is wrong, and young people get taken into the palace, never to be seen again.
He knows enough that there is heresy afoot.

[REhorror]

There are some ♥♥♥♥-retarded Dogmatic choices in Act 2 yes. No, acting like a haughty noble has nothing to do with "Dogmatic".
Just ignore them, they get a whole lot better in Act 3.

[Idiakinny]

Originally posted by rorek55:

The problem with your assertion is that, adhering fully to dogmatic tendencies you become Chorda. Eating human brains(note, no, most dogmatic people would not do this) and burning Jean Valjean for stealing a loaf of bread. Of course, you can soften this somewhat, but as an example, a commissar is not only allowed, but expected, to shoot any soldier that so much as shows an inkling of fleeing. Its actually considered being extremely merciful if they simply show themselves to the soldier as a "reminder" instead of blowing their brains out then and there.

Actually, no. While some commissars are of course, trigger happy to blast every soldiers brain out, most of them do not do that unless necessary.
Commissars are drilled to keep order during fight, and blasting soldiers brains out only one of the options, not a mandatory one at that even. Look at famous named commissar characters (Gaunt, Cain, Yarrick), they're nowhere near this stereotype of blasting every cowards brain out.