Warhammer 40,000: Rogue Trader

Warhammer 40,000: Rogue Trader

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Apexnexius 2024 年 1 月 6 日 下午 8:57
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How evil is the 40k Universe?
Franchise Values - Some information please

I'm hearing a lot about this game. Many people are saying that the world building is marred by fascist/totalitarian celebrated lore and values.
Is there some truth to this?

I played 'Warhammer: Shadow of the Horned Rat' back in my days (I even painted and played with some figurines), but my lawful good friends are warning me that 40k is something entirely different than classic Warhammer in terms of values?


EDIT:
I am a good Christian.
最后由 Apexnexius 编辑于; 2024 年 1 月 6 日 下午 9:36
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正在显示第 61 - 75 条,共 178 条留言
Frostiken 2024 年 1 月 7 日 上午 11:48 
引用自 Nigrescence
引用自 Gun Mage
Chaos is not inherently good or evil. Beings with souls sway it one way or another.
Brother, get me the flamer. The HEAVY flamer.

Manifestations of the Emperors Will are only possible through the Immaterium, are they not?
最后由 Frostiken 编辑于; 2024 年 1 月 7 日 上午 11:48
Shadowkire 2024 年 1 月 7 日 下午 1:02 
引用自 Frostiken
引用自 Nigrescence
Brother, get me the flamer. The HEAVY flamer.

Manifestations of the Emperors Will are only possible through the Immaterium, are they not?
Chaos and the Immaterium are related but separate things. The Immaterium/Warp is not inherently evil, but the Chaos Gods and all associated beings are evil.
Moonlight Knight 2024 年 1 月 7 日 下午 1:37 
引用自 Merque
It's not really evil, nor is it really "grimdark".

The universe is so much over-the-top that I'd say it's actually a satirical commentary on real history/real politics.

A lot of (younger) fans of WH40k just inhale everything at face value without taking into consideration how hilariously stupid most of the stuff is - btw this is also the reason I absolutely dislike Orcs -> there's no need for low-IQ comic relief: the setting IS comedy.
To be fair I've always been kind of a big fan of Fromsoft's habit of including absolutely goofy-looking enemies who turn out to be really horrifying once you get to know them, and the Orks absolutely do seem silly on the surface but are horrifying if you're not at least a Space Marine, which can be a really fun dichotomy to explore from a writing perspective.

All this to say: Genuinely terrifying and comic relief don't have to be mutually exclusive, and the interplay can even make them more terrifying in the long run.
Wankovich, Ista 2024 年 1 月 7 日 下午 2:04 
The Imperium of Man is a theocratic feudalistic empire. Yes it is heavily Authoritarian.
No it is not fascist, it doe not have the ability to be fascist, it lacks the totalitarian control required. Inquisitors are few and far between, some worlds only have 1 judge and a handful of Arbites, the Judge acting as Supreme Court of the planet and the arbites acting as a sort of fbi for the judge. Some worlds are democractic, someworlds are ruled by dynastic rulers some are dictatorships ruled under a governer .

If you supply the Imperial Tithe and you follow the Imperial Truth (The Worship of the God Emperor not the Science one...) then you can pretty much do whatever you want which would not be able to happen in a fascist polity.

People who call the IoM Fascist either don't know what Fascism even is or are being wilfully ignorant so that they can stretch the definitions.

Abhor the Tourist, Gatekeep the Tourist.. Suffer not the Tourist to "fix"

edit:
LOOK UP THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN AUTHORITARIAN AND TOTALITARIAN, THEY ARE NO THE SAME

I'd hate to live in both societies but if I had to choose I'd live in an authoritarian hellhole than a totalitarian hellhole
最后由 Wankovich, Ista 编辑于; 2024 年 1 月 7 日 下午 2:10
Dryden 2024 年 1 月 7 日 下午 2:19 
引用自 Apexnexius
Franchise Values - Some information please

I'm hearing a lot about this game. Many people are saying that the world building is marred by fascist/totalitarian celebrated lore and values.
Is there some truth to this?

I played 'Warhammer: Shadow of the Horned Rat' back in my days (I even painted and played with some figurines), but my lawful good friends are warning me that 40k is something entirely different than classic Warhammer in terms of values?


EDIT:
I am a good Christian.
It depends. If your city had highly unstable people with nuclear bombs, would it be fascist for the government to apprehend these individuals before they either intentionally or unintentionally made them go boom?
最后由 Dryden 编辑于; 2024 年 1 月 7 日 下午 2:19
madison 2024 年 1 月 7 日 下午 3:40 
引用自 Moonlight Knight
引用自 Merque
It's not really evil, nor is it really "grimdark".

The universe is so much over-the-top that I'd say it's actually a satirical commentary on real history/real politics.

A lot of (younger) fans of WH40k just inhale everything at face value without taking into consideration how hilariously stupid most of the stuff is - btw this is also the reason I absolutely dislike Orcs -> there's no need for low-IQ comic relief: the setting IS comedy.
To be fair I've always been kind of a big fan of Fromsoft's habit of including absolutely goofy-looking enemies who turn out to be really horrifying once you get to know them, and the Orks absolutely do seem silly on the surface but are horrifying if you're not at least a Space Marine, which can be a really fun dichotomy to explore from a writing perspective.

All this to say: Genuinely terrifying and comic relief don't have to be mutually exclusive, and the interplay can even make them more terrifying in the long run.
Orks work best when they're written like fairy tale monsters in the same vein as the Brothers Grimm. I gained a newfound respect for them as a faction after I learned that the whole entire point they fight other species despite believing they themselves are the ultimate opponents is because they perceive all other forms of life as deserving to be exterminated for being innately inferior.
madison 2024 年 1 月 7 日 下午 3:43 
引用自 Dryden
引用自 Apexnexius
Franchise Values - Some information please

I'm hearing a lot about this game. Many people are saying that the world building is marred by fascist/totalitarian celebrated lore and values.
Is there some truth to this?

I played 'Warhammer: Shadow of the Horned Rat' back in my days (I even painted and played with some figurines), but my lawful good friends are warning me that 40k is something entirely different than classic Warhammer in terms of values?


EDIT:
I am a good Christian.
It depends. If your city had highly unstable people with nuclear bombs, would it be fascist for the government to apprehend these individuals before they either intentionally or unintentionally made them go boom?
The creator of the setting outright stated that there had to be a strong central authority of some kind to keep psychic mutants in check, due to the existence of Enslavers. It's just a tragedy that it was The Imperium and none of the other intentionally unspecified Great Crusade era powers.
最后由 madison 编辑于; 2024 年 1 月 7 日 下午 3:45
Thasher 2024 年 1 月 7 日 下午 3:47 
Ta'u or Tau are probably the closet thing as the "good guys" in the 40k universe.
Their most heinous war crime is just one commander wiping out human colony that are part of the tau empire because he went through the warp without a gellar field and seen some ♥♥♥♥.
madison 2024 年 1 月 7 日 下午 3:52 
引用自 Thasher
Ta'u or Tau are probably the closet thing as the "good guys" in the 40k universe.
Their most heinous war crime is just one commander wiping out human colony that are part of the tau empire because he went through the warp without a gellar field and seen some ♥♥♥♥.
They haven't done anything more evil than any nation has done in real life and their leaders are at worst self serving Machiavellian politicians.
Karathos 2024 年 1 月 7 日 下午 3:53 
Look, you gotta understand something very simple - everything in 40k is absolutely HORRENDOUS. Everything you need to understand about the Empire in 40k is there in the ending of Act 1. When people get out of line, when they decide to think for themselves, and when they start toying with powers they can't handle - the ending of Act 1 is what can happen. I am deliberately calling it "the ending" to avoid spoilers if someone who's new reads this.

EVERYTHING the Empire faces is horrible. And that horrible stuff can be brought on by a SINGLE person getting out of line. Latent psychic powers? Read a weird book you were told you shouldn't touch? Bam, you get possessed and become a Daemonhost. Bam, Word Bearer invasion. Bam, Exterminatus - entire planet is now dead. And that's ONE person getting out of line. And in a Hive City for example there are untold quadruple-hilari-clownshobillions of people. And on a really densely populated world there are SEVERAL Hive CIties. So what do you do? You keep the ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ PEASANTS IN LINE, and you build your entire society around MAKING SURE THEY STAY IN LINE. Because your entire galactic civilization is on a knife's edge 24/7/365/M.41

When your entire planet can collapse because one guy prays for a little help with his cough, maybe you tell him to just leave it to the Imperial Health Service. Or maybe you just shoot him because he just started actively rotting...

Food for thought!
Laguz 2024 年 1 月 7 日 下午 4:15 
Gonna focus on the imperium, but most other factions are usually faced with equivalent circumstances.

The imperium suffers from a mix of overextending and hyperbloated bureaucracy (which is to be expected when you have to control the accountability and logistics of such a massive empire.) while fending off powerful enemies with tools that are usually the only option available.
Humanity in 40k is the result of "what if terminator happened in starwars, and the force was a reflection of our nature as living beings, both good and bad"

So, AI rebelled, humanity barely survived, and ended in a post apocalyptic scenario. The emperor appeared, and united humanity, then went on an expansionist crusade.
So, they just went and invaded their neighbors in a xenohpobic crusade, which is evil, right?
Well... there is a problem. It is similar to trying to play an RTS in a passive way. If you don't take your opponents resources, you grow slowly, while the other players who DO take each other's resources grow exponentially. Once they find you, it's over.

So, terrible creatures and living weapons left from an ancient war live somewhere in the galaxy, and trying a diplomatic approach is too slow and ineffective to mount a proper defense, so humanity goes into the offensive. They expand and create a large empire capable of defending themselves against living apocalypses such as orks and tyranids. But there is this thing known as Chaos.

Chaos itself is not evil, but tends to go to the extremes. Each chaos god represents specific parts of our nature. For example, nurgle is death and rebirth. Everything rots, but new life sprouts and feeds from the corpses. Diseases will spread freely because, in nurgles eyes, the lives of the bacteria matter as much as yours, and deserve to live too. Finally, he represents the end of things, everything will end at some point, not only your life, but also things like joy and suffering)
Other gods like Tzeench represent things like change, knowledge and scheming, but also hope and potential. With Tzeench, no matter how bad things get, there is hope that things will get better.
Since they are just manifestations of nature, who were born from the emotions and actions of living beings, they are bound to their nature. (if somehow tzeench defeated every single enemy he had, and ended up alone, he would scheme against himself, eternally changing, maybe hoping a new opponent would be born, since stasis is anathema to him)

The problem with chaos, is that it is "infectious".
If you find a trinket related to chaos in someway, it will affect you. It may be just a wooden "toy" you found in the sand, but it still a gate to it's influence, and will slowly affect you more and more. It may be a slow process, maybe you just ended up liking that toy, so you started making more, thinking more people would like it, and maybe nothing important will happen in your lifetime. But the symbol will spread, or a name, or anything. Just knowing the name of a chaos god put you at risk, and spreads like a virulent plague.

And similarly, the horus heresy happened, corrupting many, and leading to humanity to shatter and barely cling to their empire. With the emperor half-dead, no one can properly lead his empire in the way he planned, and humans, as imperfect as we are, yearn for a protector. This turned the empereor, someone who hated religion, as it led to chaos, into this symbol and, ironically, into a god.

So, people become fiercely religious, the galaxy is scary, the empire is so big that cities are dystopic, it is a logistical nightmare that is impossible to manage, and the only person capable to properly rule it is rotting in a throne, kept alive by sacrificing tons of psykers daily.

In essence, this is the world in which the imperium exists. It desperately tries to fight against powerful enemies that require an ungodly amount of resources and manpower to stand a chance against it. And internally, chaos can pop from anywhere, and things like mercy can easily turn an act of kindness into an interplanetary insurrection that kills billions and damages a system that is already hanging by a thread.


The Imperium is not evil, but rather just the result of humanity trying to survive against overwhelming odds by doing anything it takes.

...and as i said before, most factions have their own circunstances, even the sadistic Drukari, who can be compared to the protagonist of Amnesia: The Dark Descent. Using suffering as a tool to protect themselves from a terrible and everpresent being constantly hunting them down.
最后由 Laguz 编辑于; 2024 年 1 月 7 日 下午 4:16
XartaX 2024 年 1 月 7 日 下午 4:23 
Chaos/Warp isn't evil. Anyone who say so don't understand it.

You could say the four big obvious chaos gods are evil, that's pretty fair. But that's different from chaos/warp.

In fact, many believe the Emperor today to actually just be a chaos god. A being created by humanity's collective belief in the god(/corpse)-emperor. And the Living Saints as his greater daemons/daemon princes (they basically have superpowers like being able to resurrect from the dead, have their powers weaken if exposed to anti-warp stuff, etc.).
最后由 XartaX 编辑于; 2024 年 1 月 7 日 下午 4:24
REhorror 2024 年 1 月 7 日 下午 4:26 
I still get a chuckle when people say Tyranid/Chaos isn't evil but the Imperium is, sometimes.
Neonivek 2024 年 1 月 7 日 下午 4:27 
引用自 XartaX
Chaos/Warp isn't evil. Anyone who say so don't understand it.

You could say the four big obvious chaos gods are evil, that's pretty fair. But that's different from chaos/warp.

In fact, many believe the Emperor today to actually just be a chaos god. A being created by humanity's collective belief in the god(/corpse)-emperor. And the Living Saints as his greater daemons/daemon princes (they basically have superpowers like being able to resurrect from the dead, have their powers weaken if exposed to anti-warp stuff, etc.).

And of the four chaos gods... Two aren't strictly evil... just incompatible.

You have Nurgle who, as far as he knows, is doing us a favor by infecting us.

Then you have Khorne who cares not for which blood flows so long as it flows.
I Denizen I 2024 年 1 月 7 日 下午 4:52 
People keep saying that the Imperium is not "good", but they are applying todays morals, todays politics to the actions of something so far removed from any sense or sort of reality they can understand.

In 40k, anything that enables humans to survive is good, anything that impedes that is bad.
So that is the logic that allows what we consider to be atrocity's as nothing more than unfortunate decision, if doing it ultimately benefits the Imperium chances of survival, then they lament it, do it and carry on.

To understand 40k, you have to ask yourself what would you do to survive, imagine the world as you know it has collapsed, society is falling apart, no jobs, no money, no reliable access to food or clean water, just what lines would you cross to survive? what things do you consider reprehensible now, while your safe and warm with a stocked fridge and power and water, I can guarantee they would all go out of the window in a heart beat.

Survival has no room for morals, only when humans suspend that imperative are we capable of having morals, and trying to live by them.
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发帖日期: 2024 年 1 月 6 日 下午 8:57
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