Philosophy in 40k and Why People are Mad about Iconoclast

[BlazingScribe]

These are some musings I've had and conclusions I've come to since playing Rogue Trader, and reflecting on the setting its presents along with other materials on 40k I have read. Spoilers ahead, so be warned.

40k as a setting is relentlessly, comically grim, and that is intentional. That tone is a necessary component of the setting, partly because it is one of its defining features after decades of use and adaptations, and partly because many of rule-of-cool elements and character moments depend on that depressing background to work. Caiphas Cain would not work half as well in Star Trek as he does in 40k. The Salamanders and Lamenter's status as the "good guys" is only relevant because of the context they are in. The relentless darkness of the setting makes the frequent negative outcomes tolerable in light of the rare, but bright contrasts of the victories against evil. Plus, for those people who like seeing evil get its due, its an inversion of the usual formula. When the setting is working as intended, it's great, because you can enjoy heavy metal space operas without a trace of irony. It's just really a cool illusion. But its a narrow path.

On the one hand, there is such a thing as grimderp; when something is so grim, so dark, so inane in its cruelty that readers give up. The odds are no longer insurmountable, they're just dumb. Where this line is varies from person to person and author to author; a bell curve of acceptability. Act 3 in Rogue Trader is arguably this point. Your character being betrayed, captured, and likely failing numerous skill checks and encounters can be frustrating to a play that has grown used to having agency. More importantly, the player does not just resent the characters who placed in that narrative position, they resent the story itself for taking that direction. Investment is lost, and in-character desperation becomes frustration. We approach the "dumb" zone. That isn't a universal experience, but it is an example of approaching the "negative" end of the curve.

On the other hand, there is the positive end of the curve that is more insidious. This is the point where things become too noble, too bright, too optimistic for the setting around it to sustain. Much like horrific fascist dictatorships in real life, the Imperium of the 40k universe only works when the following statement is true: The horror is necessary. The Imperium is not even close to a "good" faction, but you can get around that and empathize with its collective if you accept that this is the best they can manage. If that ever stops being true, and a viable, more palatable alternative is available, then the horror of the imperium is accented and we approach the "dumb" zone again. This is what happened with the original Tau, a faction that originally appeared more moral and noble than the imperium, yet was still competitive. The usual arguments in favor of the imperium failed, it was shown to be evil and stupid by comparison, and so the illusion broke. Most can support a lawful evil empire if the context permits it, but no one likes a cruel idiot. How Iconoclast can be interpreted in this game has a similar risk.

The iconoclast narrative looks stuck in a no-win situation. The setting demands that idealist action backfire, that relentless dogmatism is the only way to survival and that is why all the common-place suffering is acceptable. If an idealist iconoclast does succeed in making their Utopia, it risks making the rest of the setting stupid-evil by comparison. But as a roleplaying experience, it sucks to pick a narrative route that ends with "rocks fall, everything dies." Saying "I warned you" doesn't make that outcome any more enjoyable, it just makes you insufferable and the recipient angry. I think this is why there are so many arguments about Iconoclast choices. it's an argument between people who understand the setting and accept it for how it is, and people who want the agency to push back against a status quo. Two different, be equally important narrative fantasies. Owlcat I think recognized this on some level, because they did something pretty clever with Iconoclast. Spoilers ahead. Seriously, do not read if you have not finished the game.

Nomos is the answer. Nomos solves every problem, both with the narrative and the setting, for everyone involved. Iconoclast players get their happy ending, or as close as they can manage. They get to play the benevolent ruler, who faces down both chaos and the Imperium and says "no, we're doing something different." They get a sliver of hope, and a promise at a future, and that's enough. For setting purists and dogmatists though, their justifications are not compromised. Getting Nomos for an Iconoclast run is a difficult gamble that might not even work, and requires a lot of compromises to achieve. It is long shot at best, and at worst heralds the "something worse" that is promised by alternatives. More important, the Nomos solution wouldn't work across the imperium at large; it's a miracle that it could work at all. The setting is intact, the grimdark still makes sense, the heavy metal space opera continues.

Rambling essay over.
TL:DR I think Iconoclast deserves a lot of credit for how it's been implemented and I think opposition to it from purists doesn't take the full picture into account. It isn't a "golden ending" exactly, it's a risky third path. A viable path to benevolence and a bright future, maybe, but a dangerous one, only accessible through guile, determination, and a lot of luck. All the effort aside, they got lucky this time. Isn't that grimdark in itself?

*Minor edits for clarity.

[chaoticevilrussian]

Origineel geplaatst door Megapewpew:

Origineel geplaatst door chaoticevilrussian:

Age of Sigmar legit got some excellent stories as of recently. It just really can't get past 40.000 diluge of content or it's own legacy of comically bad writing that were End Time and 1-st edition.

I'll admit, I have not read anything since endtimes outside of a broad overview of sigmar and it didnt seem good enough to justify the investment into the figures. Maybe I'll give them a read after I'm done with Angron.

Just ignore everything to do with Sylvaneth and their blond-stereotype leader. They are really determined to continue being the worst thing ever.

[Princess_Daystar]

Origineel geplaatst door I'm A Distraction!:

I think the biggest issue with the Iconoclast options is arguably the Heretical path. The reason for Dogmatism, in universe and in the table top, is a shield against the insidious power of Corruption and Chaos. But in this game so long as you don't pick any dialogue option that's tagged with (Heretic), you're immune to the powers of Chaos. Get warned by several party members that wearing the garb of the archenemy can taint your soul? Pick the Iconoclast mercy justification and you're fine. Deliberately expose yourself to Warp Scrap Code? There's no Heretic option so you're good.

A lot of the Iconoclast options should, arguably, come with not as many, but a few points of Heretic alignment to represent chaos corruption that you're exposing yourself too without the shield of Dogmatism (for the ones that make sense, such as the disguise option). Not to mention many of the Iconoclast choices should arguably blow up for political or subservient choices (not sure if they do, since I didn't take them. But for example the ruling family that managed Kieva Gamma, if you don't punish or investigate them thoroughly, should lead to massive issues later). Some of its brought up narratively (supporting the small cults on Dargonus with what comes out at the end of the colony event) but not necessarily mechanically, which can be a problem for immersion into a setting.

You don't HAVE to make the Iconoclast ending a trap at the end of the game (although in the long run it probably should be), but just show the difficulty and constant gnawing at one's soul via chaos to get across that not everyone has the Strength of Will of the Rogue Trader to play that balancing act.

I disagree on adding heretical points, not every choice needs some form of punishment, and honestly id get annoyed at it real quick. I find the Dogmatic and Heretical options to be either to douchey or to ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ for me so im kinda stuck doing Iconoclast since its the only where the player doesnt act like a ♥♥♥♥ for the most part.

as to Kiava Gamma, the family ends up crumbling away iirc regardless of your choices due to them just not being trusted by other houses.( i may be mixing the two up) unlike the other family, who already hated you, and continues to do so so far as i can tell throughout the game though i did manage to get the lord of that house to like me.

[REhorror]

Origineel geplaatst door Princess_Daystar:

Origineel geplaatst door I'm A Distraction!:

I think the biggest issue with the Iconoclast options is arguably the Heretical path. The reason for Dogmatism, in universe and in the table top, is a shield against the insidious power of Corruption and Chaos. But in this game so long as you don't pick any dialogue option that's tagged with (Heretic), you're immune to the powers of Chaos. Get warned by several party members that wearing the garb of the archenemy can taint your soul? Pick the Iconoclast mercy justification and you're fine. Deliberately expose yourself to Warp Scrap Code? There's no Heretic option so you're good.

A lot of the Iconoclast options should, arguably, come with not as many, but a few points of Heretic alignment to represent chaos corruption that you're exposing yourself too without the shield of Dogmatism (for the ones that make sense, such as the disguise option). Not to mention many of the Iconoclast choices should arguably blow up for political or subservient choices (not sure if they do, since I didn't take them. But for example the ruling family that managed Kieva Gamma, if you don't punish or investigate them thoroughly, should lead to massive issues later). Some of its brought up narratively (supporting the small cults on Dargonus with what comes out at the end of the colony event) but not necessarily mechanically, which can be a problem for immersion into a setting.

You don't HAVE to make the Iconoclast ending a trap at the end of the game (although in the long run it probably should be), but just show the difficulty and constant gnawing at one's soul via chaos to get across that not everyone has the Strength of Will of the Rogue Trader to play that balancing act.

I disagree on adding heretical points, not every choice needs some form of punishment, and honestly id get annoyed at it real quick. I find the Dogmatic and Heretical options to be either to douchey or to ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ for me so im kinda stuck doing Iconoclast since its the only where the player doesnt act like a ♥♥♥♥ for the most part.

as to Kiava Gamma, the family ends up crumbling away iirc regardless of your choices due to them just not being trusted by other houses.( i may be mixing the two up) unlike the other family, who already hated you, and continues to do so so far as i can tell throughout the game though i did manage to get the lord of that house to like me.

Not acting like a ♥♥♥♥ can still mean you earn Heretical point (or even Dogmatic/Loyalist), it depends.

It depends on what you do, Heretical is not JUST a belief, it's infectious.

Having the Iconoclaust path shielding you from all the Good or Bad of the universe makes no sense, and is again, Mary Sue-ist.

[chaoticevilrussian]

Origineel geplaatst door Princess_Daystar:

as to Kiava Gamma, the family ends up crumbling away iirc regardless of your choices due to them just not being trusted by other houses.( i may be mixing the two up) unlike the other family, who already hated you, and continues to do so so far as i can tell throughout the game though i did manage to get the lord of that house to like me.

I still remember how I had a single talk with my capital's govenor and immediately desided that none of these big noble clans of my domain are in any way competent and every single member of Werserian family seems to be a balls-to-the-floor chad. Friendship with nobility ended without even starting, Werserian family are my new friends.

[Wraith]

It funny ha ha ork dumb until they get hype enough to pop out a ghazghkull or worst case scenario become krork again

[Princess_Daystar]

Origineel geplaatst door REhorror:

Origineel geplaatst door Princess_Daystar:

I disagree on adding heretical points, not every choice needs some form of punishment, and honestly id get annoyed at it real quick. I find the Dogmatic and Heretical options to be either to douchey or to ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ for me so im kinda stuck doing Iconoclast since its the only where the player doesnt act like a ♥♥♥♥ for the most part.

as to Kiava Gamma, the family ends up crumbling away iirc regardless of your choices due to them just not being trusted by other houses.( i may be mixing the two up) unlike the other family, who already hated you, and continues to do so so far as i can tell throughout the game though i did manage to get the lord of that house to like me.

Not acting like a ♥♥♥♥ can still mean you earn Heretical point (or even Dogmatic/Loyalist), it depends.

It depends on what you do, Heretical is not JUST a belief, it's infectious.

Having the Iconoclaust path shielding you from all the Good or Bad of the universe makes no sense, and is again, Mary Sue-ist.

Disagree, it shouldnt earn either other point, that system is fine as is, nor does it shield you from the bad of the universe unlike dogmatic which only gives you the best options, and probably the best ending.

[Princess_Daystar]

Origineel geplaatst door chaoticevilrussian:

Origineel geplaatst door Princess_Daystar:

as to Kiava Gamma, the family ends up crumbling away iirc regardless of your choices due to them just not being trusted by other houses.( i may be mixing the two up) unlike the other family, who already hated you, and continues to do so so far as i can tell throughout the game though i did manage to get the lord of that house to like me.

I still remember how I had a single talk with my capital's govenor and immediately desided that none of these big noble clans of my domain are in any way competent and every single member of Werserian family seems to be a balls-to-the-floor chad. Friendship with nobility ended without even starting, Werserian family are my new friends.

absolutely. I dug into them as much as the game lets you and all i wanted to do was execute them all. Worst part is though the Werserians end up being just another noble house later on down the road :(

[chaoticevilrussian]

Origineel geplaatst door Wraith:

It funny ha ha ork dumb until they get hype enough to pop out a ghazghkull or worst case scenario become krork again

My brother in Gork (and Mork), I love orks. Thay are my second most favorite faction in Warhammer (both of them). But I don't see GW giving them any more time in a frame that they need to sh*t out yet another "Imperium barely wins yet again" story.

[REhorror]

Origineel geplaatst door chaoticevilrussian:

Origineel geplaatst door Princess_Daystar:

as to Kiava Gamma, the family ends up crumbling away iirc regardless of your choices due to them just not being trusted by other houses.( i may be mixing the two up) unlike the other family, who already hated you, and continues to do so so far as i can tell throughout the game though i did manage to get the lord of that house to like me.

I still remember how I had a single talk with my capital's govenor and immediately desided that none of these big noble clans of my domain are in any way competent and every single member of Werserian family seems to be a balls-to-the-floor chad. Friendship with nobility ended without even starting, Werserian family are my new friends.

I find CERTAIN ones of the tech priest-affiliated nobles house and the Patriarch of Sauerback to be fine.
The Drivestem seems wholly untrustworthy/evil tho.

Kinda gives me some Games of Throne flashback with all the family politics.

[I'm A Distraction!]

Origineel geplaatst door Princess_Daystar:

I disagree on adding heretical points, not every choice needs some form of punishment, and honestly id get annoyed at it real quick. I find the Dogmatic and Heretical options to be either to douchey or to ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ for me so im kinda stuck doing Iconoclast since its the only where the player doesnt act like a ♥♥♥♥ for the most part.

as to Kiava Gamma, the family ends up crumbling away iirc regardless of your choices due to them just not being trusted by other houses.( i may be mixing the two up) unlike the other family, who already hated you, and continues to do so so far as i can tell throughout the game though i did manage to get the lord of that house to like me.

This is a dark feudal universe set in the far future, with the darkness of the world enforced by how the universe responds to your decisions, it does kind of need that cost. The table top system does in the form of Insanity and Corruption, exposing yourself to warp ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ without the proper protections is a slow path towards being turned into a chaos spawn. As an adaptation, Rogue Trader should have followed in that path at least in regards to Corruption.

Considering on the mechanics side of things the heretic alignment is called Corruption, I half wonder if that was the original design before going the alignment choices instead.

[REhorror]

Origineel geplaatst door Princess_Daystar:

Origineel geplaatst door REhorror:

Not acting like a ♥♥♥♥ can still mean you earn Heretical point (or even Dogmatic/Loyalist), it depends.

It depends on what you do, Heretical is not JUST a belief, it's infectious.

Having the Iconoclaust path shielding you from all the Good or Bad of the universe makes no sense, and is again, Mary Sue-ist.

Disagree, it shouldnt earn either other point, that system is fine as is, nor does it shield you from the bad of the universe unlike dogmatic which only gives you the best options, and probably the best ending.

It literally shields you from the Bad of the unvierse and gives you an independent regime free from the Imperium.

And nonsense like wearing heretics clothing gives no Heretics point.

And no, objectively, Dogmatic choices do NOT give you the best option, I've argued this.

[chaoticevilrussian]

Origineel geplaatst door Princess_Daystar:

absolutely. I dug into them as much as the game lets you and all i wanted to do was execute them all. Worst part is though the Werserians end up being just another noble house later on down the road :(

It's the noblest in spirit that often fall the hardest... Damn you Warhammer universe, you win yet again.

[Princess_Daystar]

Origineel geplaatst door REhorror:

Origineel geplaatst door chaoticevilrussian:

I still remember how I had a single talk with my capital's govenor and immediately desided that none of these big noble clans of my domain are in any way competent and every single member of Werserian family seems to be a balls-to-the-floor chad. Friendship with nobility ended without even starting, Werserian family are my new friends.

I find CERTAIN ones of the tech priest-affiliated nobles house and the Patriarch of Sauerback to be fine.
The Drivestem seems wholly untrustworthy/evil tho.

Kinda gives me some Games of Throne flashback with all the family politics.

at least in one the endings i got the Drivestems rather quickly fade into being first a minor noble house then into just being one of the rabble aristocrats, which works for me, oh how badly it must hurt for them to have that happen.

[Princess_Daystar]

Origineel geplaatst door I'm A Distraction!:

Origineel geplaatst door Princess_Daystar:

I disagree on adding heretical points, not every choice needs some form of punishment, and honestly id get annoyed at it real quick. I find the Dogmatic and Heretical options to be either to douchey or to ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ for me so im kinda stuck doing Iconoclast since its the only where the player doesnt act like a ♥♥♥♥ for the most part.

as to Kiava Gamma, the family ends up crumbling away iirc regardless of your choices due to them just not being trusted by other houses.( i may be mixing the two up) unlike the other family, who already hated you, and continues to do so so far as i can tell throughout the game though i did manage to get the lord of that house to like me.

This is a dark feudal universe set in the far future, with the darkness of the world enforced by how the universe responds to your decisions, it does kind of need that cost. The table top system does in the form of Insanity and Corruption, exposing yourself to warp ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ without the proper protections is a slow path towards being turned into a chaos spawn. As an adaptation, Rogue Trader should have followed in that path at least in regards to Corruption.

Considering on the mechanics side of things the heretic alignment is called Corruption, I half wonder if that was the original design before going the alignment choices instead.

as i said - i disagree that it needs that cost. It would imo only harm the games replay value. Im very well aware of what 40k is, ive been reading the books and lore since i was a teen, when it comes to games though, not everything in 40k makes for a good gameplay experience, and thats a system i dont think works well in a game like Rogue Trader.

[REhorror]

Origineel geplaatst door Princess_Daystar:

Origineel geplaatst door REhorror:

I find CERTAIN ones of the tech priest-affiliated nobles house and the Patriarch of Sauerback to be fine.
The Drivestem seems wholly untrustworthy/evil tho.

Kinda gives me some Games of Throne flashback with all the family politics.

at least in one the endings i got the Drivestems rather quickly fade into being first a minor noble house then into just being one of the rabble aristocrats, which works for me, oh how badly it must hurt for them to have that happen.

The Drivestems are the major ruling house of Dargonus.
I mean, they haven't fallen to Chaos yet unlike Janus & Kiava Gamma, but they by far seem super incompetent compared to everyone else.