Philosophy in 40k and Why People are Mad about Iconoclast

[BlazingScribe]

These are some musings I've had and conclusions I've come to since playing Rogue Trader, and reflecting on the setting its presents along with other materials on 40k I have read. Spoilers ahead, so be warned.

40k as a setting is relentlessly, comically grim, and that is intentional. That tone is a necessary component of the setting, partly because it is one of its defining features after decades of use and adaptations, and partly because many of rule-of-cool elements and character moments depend on that depressing background to work. Caiphas Cain would not work half as well in Star Trek as he does in 40k. The Salamanders and Lamenter's status as the "good guys" is only relevant because of the context they are in. The relentless darkness of the setting makes the frequent negative outcomes tolerable in light of the rare, but bright contrasts of the victories against evil. Plus, for those people who like seeing evil get its due, its an inversion of the usual formula. When the setting is working as intended, it's great, because you can enjoy heavy metal space operas without a trace of irony. It's just really a cool illusion. But its a narrow path.

On the one hand, there is such a thing as grimderp; when something is so grim, so dark, so inane in its cruelty that readers give up. The odds are no longer insurmountable, they're just dumb. Where this line is varies from person to person and author to author; a bell curve of acceptability. Act 3 in Rogue Trader is arguably this point. Your character being betrayed, captured, and likely failing numerous skill checks and encounters can be frustrating to a play that has grown used to having agency. More importantly, the player does not just resent the characters who placed in that narrative position, they resent the story itself for taking that direction. Investment is lost, and in-character desperation becomes frustration. We approach the "dumb" zone. That isn't a universal experience, but it is an example of approaching the "negative" end of the curve.

On the other hand, there is the positive end of the curve that is more insidious. This is the point where things become too noble, too bright, too optimistic for the setting around it to sustain. Much like horrific fascist dictatorships in real life, the Imperium of the 40k universe only works when the following statement is true: The horror is necessary. The Imperium is not even close to a "good" faction, but you can get around that and empathize with its collective if you accept that this is the best they can manage. If that ever stops being true, and a viable, more palatable alternative is available, then the horror of the imperium is accented and we approach the "dumb" zone again. This is what happened with the original Tau, a faction that originally appeared more moral and noble than the imperium, yet was still competitive. The usual arguments in favor of the imperium failed, it was shown to be evil and stupid by comparison, and so the illusion broke. Most can support a lawful evil empire if the context permits it, but no one likes a cruel idiot. How Iconoclast can be interpreted in this game has a similar risk.

The iconoclast narrative looks stuck in a no-win situation. The setting demands that idealist action backfire, that relentless dogmatism is the only way to survival and that is why all the common-place suffering is acceptable. If an idealist iconoclast does succeed in making their Utopia, it risks making the rest of the setting stupid-evil by comparison. But as a roleplaying experience, it sucks to pick a narrative route that ends with "rocks fall, everything dies." Saying "I warned you" doesn't make that outcome any more enjoyable, it just makes you insufferable and the recipient angry. I think this is why there are so many arguments about Iconoclast choices. it's an argument between people who understand the setting and accept it for how it is, and people who want the agency to push back against a status quo. Two different, be equally important narrative fantasies. Owlcat I think recognized this on some level, because they did something pretty clever with Iconoclast. Spoilers ahead. Seriously, do not read if you have not finished the game.

Nomos is the answer. Nomos solves every problem, both with the narrative and the setting, for everyone involved. Iconoclast players get their happy ending, or as close as they can manage. They get to play the benevolent ruler, who faces down both chaos and the Imperium and says "no, we're doing something different." They get a sliver of hope, and a promise at a future, and that's enough. For setting purists and dogmatists though, their justifications are not compromised. Getting Nomos for an Iconoclast run is a difficult gamble that might not even work, and requires a lot of compromises to achieve. It is long shot at best, and at worst heralds the "something worse" that is promised by alternatives. More important, the Nomos solution wouldn't work across the imperium at large; it's a miracle that it could work at all. The setting is intact, the grimdark still makes sense, the heavy metal space opera continues.

Rambling essay over.
TL:DR I think Iconoclast deserves a lot of credit for how it's been implemented and I think opposition to it from purists doesn't take the full picture into account. It isn't a "golden ending" exactly, it's a risky third path. A viable path to benevolence and a bright future, maybe, but a dangerous one, only accessible through guile, determination, and a lot of luck. All the effort aside, they got lucky this time. Isn't that grimdark in itself?

*Minor edits for clarity.

[Hanabi]

Originally posted by REhorror:

Originally posted by Princess_Daystar:

and thats your opinion. thankfully in my opinion its wrong.

Hmm, I don't think that's quite how it works, but it's, again, coolio :robocophead:!!!

From combat to reward this entire game needs re-balancing bad. Major debugging. Story error fixes, etc. They needed a Q/A team. They needed time polishing problems. They needed time making sure act 5 was as seamless as act 1. They needed to release a complete product.

[Princess_Daystar]

Originally posted by REhorror:

Originally posted by Princess_Daystar:

and thats your opinion. thankfully in my opinion its wrong.

Hmm, I don't think that's quite how it works, but it's, again, coolio :robocophead:!!!

It is. The devs decided to make a game in a certain way that gave players who wanted a middle of the road approach, a middle of the road approach. The designed it intentionally so it wasnt more or less harmful than the other route.

You have your opinion on how the game should play in accordance with the lore, the devs had their opinion, one that i doubt GW would have let move forward if they didnt like what was presented, and i have my opinion on how the game and lore work together. thats basically all this is. its a Difference of opinions on whats good for humanity or not in the lore.

[/|l13n]

like i said from my personal view ?

i've been Iconoclast for my firsts TWO decisions in Prologue :

i pardon only ONE ERROR.

Later, i'll be rude.

It was a special event what happened in prolog...

[REhorror]

Originally posted by Princess_Daystar:

Originally posted by REhorror:

Hmm, I don't think that's quite how it works, but it's, again, coolio !!!

It is. The devs decided to make a game in a certain way that gave players who wanted a middle of the road approach, a middle of the road approach. The designed it intentionally so it wasnt more or less harmful than the other route.

You have your opinion on how the game should play in accordance with the lore, the devs had their opinion, one that i doubt GW would have let move forward if they didnt like what was presented, and i have my opinion on how the game and lore work together. thats basically all this is. its a Difference of opinions on whats good for humanity or not in the lore.

No, saying that the Iconcolaust options give more profits and less consequences is an observation of fact, not an opinion.

And an opinion would be this is stinkly bad dumb dumb.

And please don't bring up GW, GW has enough problems proofreading what the writers write and declare what is canon or not canon, like that time a book says that the Black Templars is a Codex-compliant chapter and doesn't worship the Emperor.

BUT GW knows what it's doing, it's been successful in making money unlike Disney's Star Wars and Amazon's LOTR, rocking the boat too much? Eh concerning.

[Hanabi]

Originally posted by REhorror:

Originally posted by Princess_Daystar:

It is. The devs decided to make a game in a certain way that gave players who wanted a middle of the road approach, a middle of the road approach. The designed it intentionally so it wasnt more or less harmful than the other route.

You have your opinion on how the game should play in accordance with the lore, the devs had their opinion, one that i doubt GW would have let move forward if they didnt like what was presented, and i have my opinion on how the game and lore work together. thats basically all this is. its a Difference of opinions on whats good for humanity or not in the lore.

No, saying that the Iconcolaust options give more profits and less consequences is an observation of fact, not an opinion.

And an opinion would be this is stinkly bad dumb dumb.

And please don't bring up GW, GW has enough problems proofreading what the writers write and declare what is canon or not canon, like that time a book says that the Black Templars is a Codex-compliant chapter and doesn't worship the Emperor.

BUT GW knows what it's doing, it's been successful in making money unlike Disney's Star Wars and Amazon's LOTR, rocking the boat too much? Eh concerning.

I think what's throwing off this conversation of the thread is the subject of the title; Philosophy in 40k and Why People are Mad about Iconoclast

This was never meant to be a mechanical discussion reward/choice based on a game that doesn't know how to balance basic weapon management. But rather deal with the philosophical anger people have about the Iconoclastic Options.

I agree with you, the reward system is messed up. It doesn't work right, I don't think it ever has. And don't get me started on Navigator Points... ugh.

That said, I think the rewards should be different.
Iconoclast = More rewards from the grateful saved.
Dogmatic = Rapidly Increasing favor with the empire and unique rewards.
Heretic = Spoopy and strange stuff and relics with odd effects that are more personally useful.

[madison]

Originally posted by jonoliveira12:

The issue is that modern morality has been plastered all over fiction, lately, but Warhammer FUNDAMENTALLY works with old-school morality, and people find it confrontational to their modern beliefs.

The setting continuously shows you taht you are nothing but a damned insect, at the whim of universal forces beyond your comprehension and scale, to the point where your only salvation, undeserved even, can only be brought about by collective and blind belief in an outside divine ideal, that once walked amongst men.

It is literally the old-school catholic position, and it feels like a fist to the face of the modern cartoony Good vs Evil morality, society operates under.
Modern people want clear villain, with a sympathetic but flawed backstory, and clear heroes that always win, like in their Marvel movies.
Give them something closer to reality, or to the very heinous and complex mythological heroes of old religions, and they suddenly feel uncomfortable with all the darkness and dread of the implications that these stories carry.

The funny thing is taht we live in a world WHOLLY built by evil people, but the masses believe in a very simplistic paragon morality, that not only falls flat on it's face in the real world, but also makes terribly boring fiction.
It has been very successful at changing fiction for a while now, because people really want to buy dreams, not logical and down to Earth stories. However, it has also dumbed down everything it touched, because only people that do not want to actively consider what being moral or "good" even is, and instead just want to feel good about their token actions and slogans, can ascribe to it.

Warhammer is not Good vs Evil, it is Order vs Chaos, it all it's glory, and all it's trespasses.

The best bait contains elements of truth.

[REhorror]

Originally posted by Hanabi:

Originally posted by REhorror:

No, saying that the Iconcolaust options give more profits and less consequences is an observation of fact, not an opinion.

And an opinion would be this is stinkly bad dumb dumb.

And please don't bring up GW, GW has enough problems proofreading what the writers write and declare what is canon or not canon, like that time a book says that the Black Templars is a Codex-compliant chapter and doesn't worship the Emperor.

BUT GW knows what it's doing, it's been successful in making money unlike Disney's Star Wars and Amazon's LOTR, rocking the boat too much? Eh concerning.

I think what's throwing off this conversation of the thread is the subject of the title; Philosophy in 40k and Why People are Mad about Iconoclast

This was never meant to be a mechanical discussion reward/choice based on a game that doesn't know how to balance basic weapon management. But rather deal with the philosophical anger people have about the Iconoclastic Options.

I agree with you, the reward system is messed up. It doesn't work right, I don't think it ever has. And don't get me started on Navigator Points... ugh.

That said, I think the rewards should be different.
Iconoclast = More rewards from the grateful saved.
Dogmatic = Rapidly Increasing favor with the empire and unique rewards.
Heretic = Spoopy and strange stuff and relics with odd effects that are more personally useful.

But it's related.

Seeing how Iconoclaust gets rewarded and treated like a Mary Sue by ignoring all the rules even in the game's lore makes it easy to hate.

[Neonivek]

My personal theory for why people are mad at iconiclast is because they have been TRAINED to believe that "Good action = Good". Every SINGLE other game would have made even the stupidest Iconoclast action to be somehow the "correct choice" in the end.

Didn't blow up a corrupt planet? Well you find a way to convert them back to happy people! Is how any other game would handle that scenario.

Warhammer 40k? You didn't destroy the corrupt planet? You not only doomed them but the entire galaxy is a worse place for it... You really should have made the tough decision.

The game doesn't treat Iconoclast as "The correct choice" and that is what is making people fumble.

--

Edit: Iconoclast gets rewarded? I need to play more. so far my good deeds have went unrewarded.

[Crimson Paladin]

It would be nice if they could get the true meaning of "iconoclast", which they don't.

[/|l13n]

Originally posted by DerWehrwolf:

It would be nice if they could get the true meaning of "iconoclast", which they don't.

i believe it's having sense of heart & responsabilities.

edit: i precise, i chosen best decisions for saving the ship, in prolog ; just finished it. I'll deal situations the best i can, no matter if it's good or bad... or maybe i'll be more severe in the future.. coz of course i saved my Life.. & so could save some others... but these pbs must not happen anymore !!

[madison]

Originally posted by jonoliveira12:

Originally posted by BlazingScribe:

You're so close.

The Emperor is dumb. That's the point.

The system is dumb, that's also the point. The Administratum having people wait in lines for weeks is stupid and hilarious. The Adeptus Mechancius burning incense to fix a control panel is stupid and hilarious. The elves were stupid and ruined everything and its hilarious. The fact that Orks exist is stupid and hilarious. The Necrons put their faith in a god called the Deceiver, and it is hilarious. The fact that Space wolves are just vikings in space is stupid and hilarious. The whole setting, is stupid, and hilarious. There is a guy named Ferrus Mannus, head of the Iron Hands chapter, whose name literally translates to Iron Hands of the Iron Hands.

The whole thing is One. Big. Joke. And the gods are laughing and that's the point. Everyone involved takes it seriously, and that's why they laugh.

Expanding the setting beyond laughably dark just adds spice to the joke. It's another collection of in-universe saps thinking they can get ahead of the punchline. The Tau are funny because they thing they're this moral crusade, and they have no idea how horrible their situation is.

Here's the thing. You don't need the player to be the butt of the joke. In fact, you shouldn't, because that would make a really lousy game. They can play this absurd system straight, and be the straight man to the galaxy's antics. Or they can be another clown. If you're an invested, good for you! It's another act in the play. If you see there are problems, you can fight against the script, try to do some good! The show ends eventually but you can do what you can. It's all on stage and is one of a million acts. One of them trying to do something different won't break everything.

I am not close to anything, I will just never see it your way.

The setting only makes sense, when it stops trying to make a statement, is internally consistent, and consistently bleak.
Otherwise, it will just not be 40K anymore, no matter what it is called.

I have seen this happen with D&D, Star Trek, MTG... It always happens the exact same way. There is a GOOD reason why the Change is daemonic in this setting.
Change ruins everything. Art must remain an unmoralized snapshot, otherwise it will dissolve into blandness.

I love how subtle this one is.

[REhorror]

Originally posted by Neonivek:

My personal theory for why people are mad at iconiclast is because they have been TRAINED to believe that "Good action = Good". Every SINGLE other game would have made even the stupidest Iconoclast action to be somehow the "correct choice" in the end.

Didn't blow up a corrupt planet? Well you find a way to convert them back to happy people! Is how any other game would handle that scenario.

Warhammer 40k? You didn't destroy the corrupt planet? You not only doomed them but the entire galaxy is a worse place for it... You really should have made the tough decision.

The game doesn't treat Iconoclast as "The correct choice" and that is what is making people fumble.

--

Edit: Iconoclast gets rewarded? I need to play more. so far my good deeds have went unrewarded.

You get rewarded way more by being Iconoclaust, even profit somehow.
Just continue playing.

EDIT: And yes, you can somehow will away the debuff left behind by being an Iconoclast in Act 1, that's how much the game goes to wipe yer ass LOL.

[REhorror]

Originally posted by madison:

Originally posted by jonoliveira12:

I am not close to anything, I will just never see it your way.

The setting only makes sense, when it stops trying to make a statement, is internally consistent, and consistently bleak.
Otherwise, it will just not be 40K anymore, no matter what it is called.

I have seen this happen with D&D, Star Trek, MTG... It always happens the exact same way. There is a GOOD reason why the Change is daemonic in this setting.
Change ruins everything. Art must remain an unmoralized snapshot, otherwise it will dissolve into blandness.

I love how subtle this one is.

Inquisitor?!!!!

[Princess_Daystar]

Originally posted by Neonivek:

My personal theory for why people are mad at iconiclast is because they have been TRAINED to believe that "Good action = Good". Every SINGLE other game would have made even the stupidest Iconoclast action to be somehow the "correct choice" in the end.

Didn't blow up a corrupt planet? Well you find a way to convert them back to happy people! Is how any other game would handle that scenario.

Warhammer 40k? You didn't destroy the corrupt planet? You not only doomed them but the entire galaxy is a worse place for it... You really should have made the tough decision.

The game doesn't treat Iconoclast as "The correct choice" and that is what is making people fumble.

--

Edit: Iconoclast gets rewarded? I need to play more. so far my good deeds have went unrewarded.

The only "rewards" you get are some party members you can keep if you even recruit them, but i dont think you MUST lose them on a dogmatic run either. I doubt alot of Iconoclast players are recruiting Marazhia for example, and it seems alot of people dont keep Yrliet around after Chapter 3. Hell i even had Idira killed in one of my iconoclast playthroughs, and id do it again if i entered that mission with Argenta because it gives extra context you dont get otherwise.

Only reason i recruit Marazhia is because i as a person like the Dark Eldar and like that i can have one in my party. If it wasnt for that though id be shooting him every playthrough.

[REhorror]

Originally posted by Princess_Daystar:

Originally posted by Neonivek:

My personal theory for why people are mad at iconiclast is because they have been TRAINED to believe that "Good action = Good". Every SINGLE other game would have made even the stupidest Iconoclast action to be somehow the "correct choice" in the end.

Didn't blow up a corrupt planet? Well you find a way to convert them back to happy people! Is how any other game would handle that scenario.

Warhammer 40k? You didn't destroy the corrupt planet? You not only doomed them but the entire galaxy is a worse place for it... You really should have made the tough decision.

The game doesn't treat Iconoclast as "The correct choice" and that is what is making people fumble.

--

Edit: Iconoclast gets rewarded? I need to play more. so far my good deeds have went unrewarded.

The only "rewards" you get are some party members you can keep if you even recruit them, but i dont think you MUST lose them on a dogmatic run either. I doubt alot of Iconoclast players are recruiting Marazhia for example, and it seems alot of people dont keep Yrliet around after Chapter 3. Hell i even had Idira killed in one of my iconoclast playthroughs, and id do it again if i entered that mission with Argenta because it gives extra context you dont get otherwise.

Only reason i recruit Marazhia is because i as a person like the Dark Eldar and like that i can have one in my party. If it wasnt for that though id be shooting him every playthrough.

That's not the only reward.
I have brought this up before but the choice of Janus is clear.
There's literally NO downside of restoring the food aid (the choice marked as Iconoclaust), meanwhile the upside is very little for letting Chorda cleanse it (the choice marked as Dogmatic).

So yes, the game kinda makes that you have to be stupid to take the Chorda choice, despite trying to make it an alignment choice.