Philosophy in 40k and Why People are Mad about Iconoclast

[BlazingScribe]

These are some musings I've had and conclusions I've come to since playing Rogue Trader, and reflecting on the setting its presents along with other materials on 40k I have read. Spoilers ahead, so be warned.

40k as a setting is relentlessly, comically grim, and that is intentional. That tone is a necessary component of the setting, partly because it is one of its defining features after decades of use and adaptations, and partly because many of rule-of-cool elements and character moments depend on that depressing background to work. Caiphas Cain would not work half as well in Star Trek as he does in 40k. The Salamanders and Lamenter's status as the "good guys" is only relevant because of the context they are in. The relentless darkness of the setting makes the frequent negative outcomes tolerable in light of the rare, but bright contrasts of the victories against evil. Plus, for those people who like seeing evil get its due, its an inversion of the usual formula. When the setting is working as intended, it's great, because you can enjoy heavy metal space operas without a trace of irony. It's just really a cool illusion. But its a narrow path.

On the one hand, there is such a thing as grimderp; when something is so grim, so dark, so inane in its cruelty that readers give up. The odds are no longer insurmountable, they're just dumb. Where this line is varies from person to person and author to author; a bell curve of acceptability. Act 3 in Rogue Trader is arguably this point. Your character being betrayed, captured, and likely failing numerous skill checks and encounters can be frustrating to a play that has grown used to having agency. More importantly, the player does not just resent the characters who placed in that narrative position, they resent the story itself for taking that direction. Investment is lost, and in-character desperation becomes frustration. We approach the "dumb" zone. That isn't a universal experience, but it is an example of approaching the "negative" end of the curve.

On the other hand, there is the positive end of the curve that is more insidious. This is the point where things become too noble, too bright, too optimistic for the setting around it to sustain. Much like horrific fascist dictatorships in real life, the Imperium of the 40k universe only works when the following statement is true: The horror is necessary. The Imperium is not even close to a "good" faction, but you can get around that and empathize with its collective if you accept that this is the best they can manage. If that ever stops being true, and a viable, more palatable alternative is available, then the horror of the imperium is accented and we approach the "dumb" zone again. This is what happened with the original Tau, a faction that originally appeared more moral and noble than the imperium, yet was still competitive. The usual arguments in favor of the imperium failed, it was shown to be evil and stupid by comparison, and so the illusion broke. Most can support a lawful evil empire if the context permits it, but no one likes a cruel idiot. How Iconoclast can be interpreted in this game has a similar risk.

The iconoclast narrative looks stuck in a no-win situation. The setting demands that idealist action backfire, that relentless dogmatism is the only way to survival and that is why all the common-place suffering is acceptable. If an idealist iconoclast does succeed in making their Utopia, it risks making the rest of the setting stupid-evil by comparison. But as a roleplaying experience, it sucks to pick a narrative route that ends with "rocks fall, everything dies." Saying "I warned you" doesn't make that outcome any more enjoyable, it just makes you insufferable and the recipient angry. I think this is why there are so many arguments about Iconoclast choices. it's an argument between people who understand the setting and accept it for how it is, and people who want the agency to push back against a status quo. Two different, be equally important narrative fantasies. Owlcat I think recognized this on some level, because they did something pretty clever with Iconoclast. Spoilers ahead. Seriously, do not read if you have not finished the game.

Nomos is the answer. Nomos solves every problem, both with the narrative and the setting, for everyone involved. Iconoclast players get their happy ending, or as close as they can manage. They get to play the benevolent ruler, who faces down both chaos and the Imperium and says "no, we're doing something different." They get a sliver of hope, and a promise at a future, and that's enough. For setting purists and dogmatists though, their justifications are not compromised. Getting Nomos for an Iconoclast run is a difficult gamble that might not even work, and requires a lot of compromises to achieve. It is long shot at best, and at worst heralds the "something worse" that is promised by alternatives. More important, the Nomos solution wouldn't work across the imperium at large; it's a miracle that it could work at all. The setting is intact, the grimdark still makes sense, the heavy metal space opera continues.

Rambling essay over.
TL:DR I think Iconoclast deserves a lot of credit for how it's been implemented and I think opposition to it from purists doesn't take the full picture into account. It isn't a "golden ending" exactly, it's a risky third path. A viable path to benevolence and a bright future, maybe, but a dangerous one, only accessible through guile, determination, and a lot of luck. All the effort aside, they got lucky this time. Isn't that grimdark in itself?

*Minor edits for clarity.

[REhorror]

Before saying anything else, I'll have to say all the Iconoclaust fans who jump in and say the setting needs to change to accomdate and rationalize Iconoclaust choices are rather suspicious and concerning.

It seems the nu-Star Wars fans are now done with the corpse of SW and want to jump into Warhammer 40K instead, while Warhammer 40K has actually done reasonablely well by not jumping to the Star Wars wagon.

Oh well, we will see.

[Shadowkire]

Lets not forget that it is game-canon that Iconoclast makes you smarter. If you have enough ranks of it your character can quickly interpret the Harlequin's riddles.

But if you are Dogmatic or Heretic you are too stupid to get it.

[REhorror]

Origineel geplaatst door Shadowkire:

Lets not forget that it is game-canon that Iconoclast makes you smarter. If you have enough ranks of it your character can quickly interpret the Harlequin's riddles.

But if you are Dogmatic or Heretic you are too stupid to get it.

Ah yes, that too.
That shouldn't be Iconoclaust or whatever.

I blame again multi-writers.

Call me anti-intellectual, but I hate when they try to make a certain part SOUNDS smarter (even if it really isn't).

[KharnFlakes]

Origineel geplaatst door Shadowkire:

Lets not forget that it is game-canon that Iconoclast makes you smarter. If you have enough ranks of it your character can quickly interpret the Harlequin's riddles.

But if you are Dogmatic or Heretic you are too stupid to get it.

It's not about "Smarter" it's more about becoming more and more aeldari ♥♥♥♥♥ servant, because while they boss you around you just look down on the floor. Look what happened to Inquisitor Gideon Ravenor and how he became a shackled aeldari pet. Yes, you can understand Solitare way of speech and Cegorach is laughing at you, but you still kiss Yrliet and other Craftworld aeldari feet.

[REhorror]

Origineel geplaatst door Mephiston:

Origineel geplaatst door Shadowkire:

Lets not forget that it is game-canon that Iconoclast makes you smarter. If you have enough ranks of it your character can quickly interpret the Harlequin's riddles.

But if you are Dogmatic or Heretic you are too stupid to get it.

It's not about "Smarter" it's more about becoming more and more aeldari ♥♥♥♥♥ servant, because while they boss you around you just look at your feet. Look what happened to Inquisitor Gideon Ravenor and how he became a shackled aeldari pet.

♥♥♥♥ Eldar and their sexy allure magic, man.
I'm glad this game actually touches that, it's something they have in the actual lore.

This is the Eldar "charisma". More like hynotism and lust inducing.

[KharnFlakes]

Origineel geplaatst door REhorror:

Origineel geplaatst door Mephiston:

It's not about "Smarter" it's more about becoming more and more aeldari ♥♥♥♥♥ servant, because while they boss you around you just look at your feet. Look what happened to Inquisitor Gideon Ravenor and how he became a shackled aeldari pet.

♥♥♥♥ Eldar and their sexy allure magic, man.
I'm glad this game actually touches that, it's something they have in the actual lore.

This is the Eldar "charisma". More like hynotism and lust inducing.

Dude, its not sexy magic, you like a hamster in their eyes, people throw in to aeldari because of their wisdom and secrets, look at Black Library. By the way Solitare that ♥♥♥♥♥ riddles at you, in lore dont even talk much, other eldars try not to communicate with them at all, because Slaanesh claimed his soul already but cant get it due to Cegorach yanking it. They just show up in the fight killing ♥♥♥♥ and then going away, they are loners. If you want horny degenerates then connect "sexy allure" with drukhari. Aeldari created Paths to escape the "horny stuff", because Slaanesh will ♥♥♥♥ them up. Because creation of Slaanesh became from degeneracy and what Iconocast trader trying to do with Yrilet. So you literally trying to romance Yrilet to push her into oblivion.

[REhorror]

Origineel geplaatst door Mephiston:

Origineel geplaatst door REhorror:

♥♥♥♥ Eldar and their sexy allure magic, man.
I'm glad this game actually touches that, it's something they have in the actual lore.

This is the Eldar "charisma". More like hynotism and lust inducing.

Dude, its not sexy magic, you like a hamster in their eyes, people throw in to aeldari because of their wisdom and secrets, look at Black Library. By the way Solitare that ♥♥♥♥♥ riddles at you, in lore dont even talk much, other eldars try not to communicate with them at all, because Slaanesh claimed his soul already but cant get it due to Cegorach yanking it. They just show up in the fight killing ♥♥♥♥ and then going away, they are loners.

It definitely has something to do with sex.
Aside from the fact you have MANY horndog dialogues with the Eldar, the first thing my mon'keigh crew interacts with the Eldar is a female crewmember asking if she can ♥♥♥♥ it.

I have no doubt that even the normal Eldar uses some kind of sexual allure magic to confuse people.

[Nightmarian]

Origineel geplaatst door Wraith:

No because the whole argument that iconoclast = death got escalated out of control

You can be fanatic iconoclast and still side with the imperium in the end so no being branded heretic

I agree but there should be a decent iconoclast ending, not the trolly one that exists. That's kind of the whole point of these RPGs; it may never be canon but hey not even Games Workshop knows what's canon in 40k and never have because they keep changing their minds and are currently and actively retconning the entire Horus Heresy. Heck, they still haven't cleared up the half-abandoned ret-ret-retcon of the daemon power cores and chaos being the Ultimate and Unstoppable Evil instead of the arbitrarily existing unknown reaches of our mind we fear in the same way we fear the dark, 'harmless' as it is, and in that fear is where it gains its self-destructive power.

They could have gone truly bittersweet or aligned more closely with factions like the Tau or more specifically the Farsight Enclave.

Point being there are narrative options that could have satisfying narrative conclusions. Frankly, even as someone who adores the grimness of the setting, I immediately thought of a million and one ways iconoclast could have been better written.

Owlcat must have really let their writing interns take lead on this one because the quality is all over the place as is the apparent understanding of the setting, which varies wildly from spot on to too literal it's like someone was reading memes instead of lore.

I want a redo. Another CRPG set in 40k, but made by someone else. My faith in Owlcat waned greatly with WOTR, as I really hated the power fantasy and felt it fell apart near the end, and all the DLC has been hot garbage. I had hope with Rogue Trader, and that firmly went out the window.

Not sure what they're going to do next, but I'm going to struggle to look forward to it. Luckily we're in a golden age of (J)RPGs, so it's not like I have a shortage of them to enjoy, but it sucks because CRPGs aren't commonplace and Owlcat's best strength was their writing, but that's somehow going to the gutter too now...

[KharnFlakes]

Origineel geplaatst door REhorror:

Origineel geplaatst door Mephiston:

Dude, its not sexy magic, you like a hamster in their eyes, people throw in to aeldari because of their wisdom and secrets, look at Black Library. By the way Solitare that ♥♥♥♥♥ riddles at you, in lore dont even talk much, other eldars try not to communicate with them at all, because Slaanesh claimed his soul already but cant get it due to Cegorach yanking it. They just show up in the fight killing ♥♥♥♥ and then going away, they are loners.

It definitely has something to do with sex.
Aside from the fact you have MANY horndog dialogues with the Eldar, the first thing my mon'keigh crew interacts with the Eldar is a female crewmember asking if she can ♥♥♥♥ it.

I have no doubt that even the normal Eldar uses some kind of sexual allure magic to confuse people.

I'd like to see ingame, if you push her into more human romance she will become drukhari and cut your ♥♥♥♥ off. And suddenly that "sexy allure magic" will dissapear. Due to Baldurs gate 3, people tend to go full degen horny dog now, how quaint, from Baldurs gate 2 narrative to this.

[REhorror]

Origineel geplaatst door Nightmarian:

Origineel geplaatst door Wraith:

No because the whole argument that iconoclast = death got escalated out of control

You can be fanatic iconoclast and still side with the imperium in the end so no being branded heretic

I agree but there should be a decent iconoclast ending, not the trolly one that exists. That's kind of the whole point of these RPGs; it may never be canon but hey not even Games Workshop knows what's canon in 40k and never have because they keep changing their minds and are currently and actively retconning the entire Horus Heresy, while the not half-abandoned ret-ret-retcon of the cores power cores and chaos being the Ultimate and Unstoppable Evil instead of the arbitrarily existing unknown reaches of our mind we fear in the same way we fear the dark, 'harmless' as it is.

They could have gone truly bittersweet or aligned more closely with factions like the Tau or more specifically the Farsight Enclave.

Point being there are narrative options that could have satisfying narrative conclusions. Frankly, even as someone who adores the grimness of the setting, I immediately thought of a million and one ways iconoclast could have been better written.

Owlcat must have really let their writing interns take lead on this one because the quality is all over the place as is the apparent understanding of the setting, which varies wildly from spot on to too literal it's like someone was reading memes instead of lore.

I want a redo. Another CRPG set in 40k, but made by someone else. My faith in Owlcat waned greatly with WOTR, as I really hated the power fantasy and felt it fell apart near the end, and all the DLC has been hot garbage. I had hope with Rogue Trader, and that firmly went out the window.

Not sure what they're going to do next, but I'm going to struggle to look forward to it. Luckily we're in a golden age of (J)RPGs, so it's not like I have a shortage of them to enjoy, but it sucks because CRPGs aren't commonplace and Owlcat's best strength was their writing, but that's somehow going to the gutter too now...

Isn't the Commander Farsight literally hinted to by corrupted by a daemon blade or something, that doesn't seem "Iconoclaust".

[REhorror]

Origineel geplaatst door Mephiston:

Origineel geplaatst door REhorror:

It definitely has something to do with sex.
Aside from the fact you have MANY horndog dialogues with the Eldar, the first thing my mon'keigh crew interacts with the Eldar is a female crewmember asking if she can ♥♥♥♥ it.

I have no doubt that even the normal Eldar uses some kind of sexual allure magic to confuse people.

I'd like to see ingame, if you push her into more human romance she will become drukhari and cut your ♥♥♥♥ off. And suddenly that "sexy allure magic" will dissapear. Due to Baldurs gate 3, people tend to go full degen horny dog now, how quaint, from Baldurs gate 2 narrative to this.

The drukhari is literal BDSM fetishist.

There's that random Dark eldar mistress calling her mon-keight slave "facile obedient mon-keigh" in Commoragh.

The Eldar is basically NOT that different from the Dark Eldar, mental and emotion-wise, they just try to really control their ♥♥♥♥.

[BlazingScribe]

Origineel geplaatst door Mephiston:

Origineel geplaatst door REhorror:

It definitely has something to do with sex.
Aside from the fact you have MANY horndog dialogues with the Eldar, the first thing my mon'keigh crew interacts with the Eldar is a female crewmember asking if she can ♥♥♥♥ it.

I have no doubt that even the normal Eldar uses some kind of sexual allure magic to confuse people.

I'd like to see ingame, if you push her into more human romance she will become drukhari and cut your ♥♥♥♥ off. And suddenly that "sexy allure magic" will dissapear. Due to Baldurs gate 3, people tend to go full degen horny dog now, how quaint, from Baldurs gate 2 narrative to this.

...What? I don't even...

Yrliet very specifically is not about that. At all. In fact she get's very mad if you bring it up. You learn about that because she essentially brings a sexual harassment complaint to you. That's on the crew for being weird, not her. Even the dogmatic response expresses horror and outrage at the CREW, not at her. She specifically does not like being touched.

The reason its an Iconoclast character can understand the harlequin is that, for all the horror involved, they are better equipped to handle the dark city than a dogmatic or heretic character. Their willingness to process and learn about xeno's makes them better suited to adapt to their activities. It's the same reason why Heinrix can identify Yrliet on the spot while everyone else thinks she's a mutant. He knows better. By the same token, an Iconoclast has likely made a meaningful attempt to understand her and her people's culture. By that point you may have gone through meditation. In short, your character is making an effort to actively listen and interpret. To a dogmatic character, the Harlequin is some nefarious xeno whose words are meaningless and therefore there's no point in trying to understand. The only thing they care to learn is how best to fight, not how to communicate. Heretics don't care either way.

[Nightmarian]

Origineel geplaatst door REhorror:

Origineel geplaatst door Mephiston:

Dude, its not sexy magic, you like a hamster in their eyes, people throw in to aeldari because of their wisdom and secrets, look at Black Library. By the way Solitare that ♥♥♥♥♥ riddles at you, in lore dont even talk much, other eldars try not to communicate with them at all, because Slaanesh claimed his soul already but cant get it due to Cegorach yanking it. They just show up in the fight killing ♥♥♥♥ and then going away, they are loners.

It definitely has something to do with sex.
Aside from the fact you have MANY horndog dialogues with the Eldar, the first thing my mon'keigh crew interacts with the Eldar is a female crewmember asking if she can ♥♥♥♥ it.

I have no doubt that even the normal Eldar uses some kind of sexual allure magic to confuse people.

There is no sexual allure magic, lmao. Much like how elves are commonly portrayed, humans view them as 'perfect,' because that's what elves are. A lazy take on 'perfect humans.' Just like the orc archetype is a lazy take on animalistic savagery without the restraint of social norms that might call for diplomacy or the ability to be reasoned with and the dwarf archetype is the working and mercantile class taking to the extreme and used as the sole basis for a society.

Tolkien really wasn't as innovative as people think he was.

So yes, a human merely views the ugliest eldar as the most beautiful human they have ever seen and are entranced by them. It's not magic, it's a goofy take on them being so beautiful that humans are immediately smitten.

[REhorror]

Origineel geplaatst door BlazingScribe:

Origineel geplaatst door Mephiston:

I'd like to see ingame, if you push her into more human romance she will become drukhari and cut your ♥♥♥♥ off. And suddenly that "sexy allure magic" will dissapear. Due to Baldurs gate 3, people tend to go full degen horny dog now, how quaint, from Baldurs gate 2 narrative to this.

...What? I don't even...

Yrliet very specifically is not about that. At all. In fact she get's very mad if you bring it up. You learn about that because she essentially brings a sexual harassment complaint to you. That's on the crew for being weird, not her. Even the dogmatic response expresses horror and outrage at the CREW, not at her. She specifically does not like being touched.

The reason its an Iconoclast character can understand the harlequin is that, for all the horror involved, they are better equipped to handle the dark city than a dogmatic or heretic character. Their willingness to process and learn about xeno's makes them better suited to adapt to their activities. It's the same reason why Heinrix can identify Yrliet on the spot while everyone else thinks she's a mutant. He knows better. By the same token, an Iconoclast has likely made a meaningful attempt to understand her and her people's culture. By that point you may have gone through meditation. In short, your character is making an effort to actively listen and interpret. To a dogmatic character, the Harlequin is some nefarious xeno whose words are meaningless and therefore there's no point in trying to understand. The only thing they care to learn is how best to fight, not how to communicate. Heretics don't care either way.

But Heinrix is an Inquisitor, it's not about his alignment.

And if you are saying that ONLY Iconoclaust can listen while Dogmatic and Heretic are unable to, that's dumb as heck.

In fact, Heretic should in fact be the most listening since you are being haunted by Tzeentch.

About the sexual allure magic, when it applies to many people, and when Yrliet can directly stroll into your quarters and admit she can charm/fool/confuse the guards, I say she has this ability.

[REhorror]

Origineel geplaatst door Nightmarian:

Origineel geplaatst door REhorror:

It definitely has something to do with sex.
Aside from the fact you have MANY horndog dialogues with the Eldar, the first thing my mon'keigh crew interacts with the Eldar is a female crewmember asking if she can ♥♥♥♥ it.

I have no doubt that even the normal Eldar uses some kind of sexual allure magic to confuse people.

There is no sexual allure magic, lmao. Much like how elves are commonly portrayed, humans view them as 'perfect,' because that's what elves. A lazy take on 'perfect humans.' Just like the orc archetype is a lazy take on animalistic savagery without the restraint of social norms that might call for diplomacy or the ability to be reasoned with and the dwarf archetype is the working and mercantile class taking to the extreme and used as the sole basis for a society.

Tolkien really wasn't as innovative as people think he was.

So yes, a human merely views the ugliest eldar as the most beautiful human they have ever seen and are entranced by them. It's not magic, it's a goofy take on them being so beautiful that humans are immediately smitten.

You would have a point if the Eldar doesn't use this to charm people and make them willing slaves.

And the elves also share the same charm ability in Tolkien's Legendarium, that's a part of why the dwarves hate them IIRC.